Morocco # English board

Hi everyone,

This week, "Le journal hebdo" made his front page with the controversy about the movie "Marock", I've read the reactions from various moroccan political leaders, the censorship board...etc, except for the PJD they all seem unanimous on saying that artistic creation should not be censored.
There is a post here in the french speaking forum about that controversy, the overwhelming majority of reactions are critical of the movie on religious grounds and/or traditional values.
Furthermore the poll taken by Yabiladi for the next elections shows the PJD leading with 33%.

My question is : are Moroccans abroad more conservative than their counterparts in Morocco and why ? It is puzzling given the fact that we live in progressive societies.

See here : [www.lejournal-hebdo.com]

Hi
I looked at the reactions in the link. I was amazed by the last one.
En tant que Alem
"Un membre du Conseil des ouléms de Casablanca
Le Conseil des ouléma n'a pas pris de position vis-à-vis du film. Et rien n'est encore prévu. Cela dit, en tant que alem, je suis contre tout ce qui remet en cause ou touche mes valeurs religieuses. C'est une position de principe qui trouve son origine dans les fondements même de l'Islam, aussi bien dans le Coran que dans la Sunna."

To answer your question about the people abroad, I think sine 9/11 and the ongoing campagn which is very hostile to arabes and muslims and in many cases very insulting play a very important in pushing people stick to their origins, religion and traditions. I think the people have problems keeping sovereinty, common sense and an anlytical mind in evaluating the situation.To be self-critical on many issues help accept critics from what you call progressives societies. This is not the case. This mixture of ignorance and arrogance is still making us hostages of the glorious past which is very far away.

Hi everyone,

salam chelhman,

"are Moroccans abroad more conservative than their counterparts in Morocco and why ?"...this is a good question I asked my self many times...to compare I would say yes....why?..well i have the impression that it's much more an identity issue than a religion one....i very often noticed that many moroccan were mderate muslims when they were living inmorocco...they don't pray... not focused on the religion... once they come to the western country they start to go to the mosque regularly...they don't miss the friday seremon...the women wear all scarf and if you're not so ...you will be concidered kaffir as a man and a "prust.." as a women...i think of the cultural chock they feel lost the best way to resisite is to go back to the religion...the probleme is in some stage they forget that the country is not that conservative that they are....and this is the point where the conflict starts......

I think Ilham makes a good point here; immigrants become more religious living in the west. And I could think of some reasons for that, and that is filling the void left by separation from family members and country of origin, feeling safe knowing there’s a mosque and more people to belong to. Also MRE who have children in the west also usually become more religious to set a path for their offspring to avoid seeing them taken by western values and morals.
And so to answer chelhman question: are Moroccans abroad more conservative than their counterparts in Morocco and why ? from their views and writings on forums, if they’re not, yet, they’re catching up fast, go figure!!! Also krim added some good points to answer that.

Thanks for your answers. It makes sense that they would seek familiar surroundings but what I'm noticing from the french speaking forums here, is that the 2nd or 3rd generation is more rigid than the first. They make no prisoners when discussing religion for instance. They seem to be impermeable to their environement. I'm going to make a dangerous comparison but the irony hit me in the face when reading your comments : we criticize the israeli lobby in the US, they are far more conservative in their views than any israeli resident, most of them vote Likud, some of them have never even been to Israel, but because they weigh more financially speaking, Israel bends over backwards to please them. See where I am going ?
Are MREs about to become an annoyingly conservative, influential diaspora ? Like their sworn enemies (judging by their posts) ?
Granted it hasn't been the case yet, but now that we can vote, that's over 2.5 million votes up for grabs and MREs don't seem to be leaning to the left.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2006 09:56 by chelhman.

I really think the answer to your question, are the MRE becoming conservative? Is yes. And like you mentioned, one look at the French forum and a tiny tiny look at the English one would support that view. It remains, however, amazing to me how the MRE, mostly not from rich Moroccan families, mostly working to support poor families back home end up anywhere but on the left. I know there are many from rich background also, I’m speaking about the majority.
since many of the old monadiline escaped in the seventies and eighties to the west,I was under the impression that I’ll see on these forums many who still remember ittihad attalabah, ittihad ichtiraki,(al moharir), attakaddoum wa al ichtirakia, ila l’amam and the work of al confidiraliya addimocratiya lichoghl, all the young people who were imprisoned, and tortured, to move the country to democracy. but views of Islamic parties seem to be dominating these forums.
and chelhman, for See where I am going ? I see where you were going, and I could draw the same conclusion as the one you did.
Peace,

Just to add to the debate, I just read a previous speech from Nouzha Chekrouni, if you don't who she is, you should, she's the minister in charge of us (MRE) :

<<la Direction des Investissements Extérieurs (D.I.E.) relève que les flux provenant de la France représentent à eux seuls plus de la moitié des fonds transférés; l’Italie et l’Espagne, les 2 pays d’immigration récente, générant pour leur part des transferts en constante augmentation. Au contraire, les flux émanant de Belgique, d’Allemagne et des Pays-Bas, où l’immigration est plus ancienne, connaissent une baisse notable et régulière. Cette régression s’explique par l’intégration de la communauté marocaine dans ces pays d’immigration classique, ce qui constitue un "manque à gagner" pour le Maroc. En d’autres termes, plus l’intégration des populations prend de l’ampleur, moins les transferts s’opèrent vers le Maroc, d’où la nécessité d’élaborer une stratégie nationale qui sauvegarderait les transferts et, par voie de conséquence, les investissements.>>

In other words, the non-integration in their adoptive countries and subsequently the conservatism of MREs fits right in our government policy. By the way, thanks Mrs Chekrouni, for saying out loud that we're just walking wallets.

THATS NOT THE CAUSE , THE REAL CAUSE IS WHEN YOU SEE THE LIFE OF THE UNBELIERVERS ,YOU THINK OH MY GOD , GOD CHOOSE ME TO KNOW THE TRUTH AND I'M GONNA TURN FROM IT ,NO WAY , IT'S A BLESSING TO BE MUSLIM ,ALHAMDOULLAH

Lol, how about when you see the life of the "unbelievers", you pack up your bags and go back to Morocco to live with the "believers"...

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jihane81
THATS NOT THE CAUSE , THE REAL CAUSE IS WHEN YOU SEE THE LIFE OF THE UNBELIERVERS ,YOU THINK OH MY GOD , GOD CHOOSE ME TO KNOW THE TRUTH AND I'M GONNA TURN FROM IT ,NO WAY , IT'S A BLESSING TO BE MUSLIM ,ALHAMDOULLAH

I completely agree with zaki7. If you believe to be living in Dar al-Harb, why don't you go back to your country? I think, though, that the regime in your country, eventhough using an islamic linguistic might be as corrupted, westernelized and capitalist as many European countries. In the end all Powerfull and Elites are the same...
I wanted to say that i believe that Inmigrants have always been conservatives. The migrants from Galicia living in America vote for the most rightist party in Spain. It is a classical way of restating your roots and, as Ilham says, it is a matter of identity, not religion. However, Moroccans build their identity around Islam more than basing on national identity. Yes, we are moroccans but firstly Muslims. And what is the difference? The difference is that in Morocco Mosques and Imams are controlled by the Majsen, but in Europe most Imams have been trained in Saudi Arabia or Egypt or in private schools in Europe, mainly with Saudi funding, and there is an obvious disconnexion from Europe. The UCL, a University in Belgium, has started this year european studies, with valid certificate all over the EU, on islamic teology for to-be imams and i think this is a good initiative to try and generate real debate within Europe, integrating and contextualizing Islam as part of Europe's identity, as it is and has always been.
There is now in Spain a real debate about migrant's vote. Many centre-left people really fear that migrants can vote for conservatives parties or even get their own majors in small rural areas... But the main problem for me, remains integration, dialogue and tolerance. MRE's have to feel integrated in the societies where they live, like it used to happen in the USA, where everybody had a different origin but they all felt part of the US. This, unfortunately, has changed a lot, and now, MREs feel unwelcomed everywhere in Europe... Racism is growing and growing everyday in the western world and the real problem is Mass Media and thei Biass. Every time they talk about arabs they have to come out with hijab or religious issues, giving the idea that there is nothing else but Islam in or world. The arab world is a lot more than this and it is not a freezed and obscure society as most people think. We have to fight to let people in Europe know about the real arab world, their divergences, our fight for freedom in our own way, the cruelty of our regimes and the differences between them, the intellectual strives for debate and dialogue... It is the MREs role, also, to educate, yes educate, europeans about our diversity and to destroy the invisible wall that mass media and polititians are interested to build between our peoples.

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jihane81

THATS NOT THE CAUSE , THE REAL CAUSE IS WHEN YOU SEE THE LIFE OF THE UNBELIERVERS ,YOU THINK OH MY GOD , GOD CHOOSE ME TO KNOW THE TRUTH AND I'M GONNA TURN FROM IT ,NO WAY , IT'S A BLESSING TO BE MUSLIM ,ALHAMDOULLAH

I heard G.W Bush speak like that once, must be some virus spreading around, but it only seems to affect the slow-witted.