Morocco # English board

[www.spiegel.de]

This is against our religion. These youngs should be in jail.
Aaaoud Billah



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2006 10:27 by Krim.

Krim ? who are you talking about?

a dude and girl making kisses? it's very innocent.
i wish they could have sex, but they should get married... because if she gets pregnant, it could be a source for a lot of problems.

but i think that some kisses are fine

but it's a weird translation... they are talking about sinners... do you see a morrocan say a word like "sinners"?
hummmmmm weiiiird...

Hi everyone,


LeMask,


some of them will be certainly happy if you help them financially to get married so they will realise your hope of doing sex after marriage …..


oppression can have dangerous consequences …..

Now here is something that worries me more that anything else. Marriage and virginity. I know many girls that perform sex and still keep their virginity. Simple, they have anal sex.
Now about marriage... if I am not wrong, sooner or later the population of women in morocco will surpass the one of men. Then what? a single woman beyond the 30s, unmarried was seen as a problem. What will we do then, change the law again and bring back polygamy. Or just stop being biased by some brainwashers that by reading the Koran, try to manipulate the way we should behave.

Ilhem2, i really dont see the logic in what you said.
once she will get pregnant, she will be in REAL trouble...

good luck feeding a baby and sending him to a good school when you cant even afford marriage.

it's crazy... how can it get so twisted in your mind.

you have money=you marry

you cant marry=you dont have sex

it's logic, but people are weak, and they loose it to their animal side and lose control. so they have sex. fortunately, most get luck (thanks to condoms and such) and dont get pregnant... but some dont...

and you Riffman... listen to the Koran, the Coran isnt asking you to do anything bad for you.
the Coran asks you to take your responsability as a human being.

you have the right to have sex? certainly.
but you have a duty toward your wife and your potential children.

so? what are you going to do?

you prefer to have sex and abandon your kids?

This kind of articles is usually written for western readers who are attracted by sensational, taboo and exotic topics like this one, especially when you put in the title the two words "sex" and “Isalm”... Of course the article is talking about many taboos in our society and it is good to get the point of view of an outsider, but for us, I belive that we have to see such problems from inside...we can not compare sexuality in morocco or another Muslim countrie with the same in Germany, like Der Spiegel tends to do.

I personally believe that the Sexuality of Moroccans has changed and is changing very fast and taboos are broken every day in the country. Traditions of a society needs time to change because we can revolutionize a political regime by a coup-d´etat during one night, but not cultures and traditions of centurie... and the collateral damage of changing the traditions very fast in a muslim country is the risk of extremism!

Just an example: In the 50 and 60, you could rarely find a moroccan women in the street wearing a mini-skirt or walking with her boyfriend, and most marriage were arranged by families...and 40 years later we can notice that sex consumption before marriage is widespread within singles...isn’t this a huge change during short timeframe?

An other remark to this article: most of problems related to sex and sexuality as revealed in the article are coming from Traditions and not Religion...

Der Spiegel is one of my favourite magazines. It does not cater to people looking for "exotic" sex stories.
It is just the openess of the magazine tone (which you find in many European mags) which calls a spade a spade. In less than a second readers know what the article talks about. I call that efficiency.

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LeMask
Krim ? who are you talking about?

a dude and girl making kisses? it's very innocent.
i wish they could have sex, but they should get married... because if she gets pregnant, it could be a source for a lot of problems.

but i think that some kisses are fine

but it's a weird translation... they are talking about sinners... do you see a morrocan say a word like "sinners"?
hummmmmm weiiiird...

salam

Krim is right. a dude and girl making kisses is no so innocent regarding Islam

but I think you won't understand



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2006 02:29 by Nawal..

would like your sister to be fucked and you know about it, let me hear your opinion, and would you married a girl that you know that she was getting fucked left and right? let me hear you honest answare.
with no BS

Nawal? what if they were close, known by the family (both sides)?
it's fine i tell you.

they are just making kisses

nothing bad would happen to anyone because of an innocent kiss...

it's more about tenderness than sex.

but you have also to judge the society, should we allow alcohol and forbid an innocent kiss?
we arent in a real Muslim society... people live how they can, not how they should or want to live.

and by the way, i dont like the mariage in Morroco a lot, sounds like BS to me... too much paperwork, the human factor is so so so weak.
i'm a humanist. i deal with people, not with paper work. i hate the system.

hi all,

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LeMask
Ilhem2, i really dont see the logic in what you said.
once she will get pregnant, she will be in REAL trouble...

good luck feeding a baby and sending him to a good school when you cant even afford marriage.

it's crazy... how can it get so twisted in your mind.

you have money=you marry

you cant marry=you dont have sex

it's logic, but people are weak, and they loose it to their animal side and lose control. so they have sex. fortunately, most get luck (thanks to condoms and such) and dont get pregnant... but some dont...

and you Riffman... listen to the Koran, the Coran isnt asking you to do anything bad for you.
the Coran asks you to take your responsability as a human being.

you have the right to have sex? certainly.
but you have a duty toward your wife and your potential children.

so? what are you going to do?

you prefer to have sex and abandon your kids?

LeMask,

and here we go with the Koran says this ....says that......don’t you have your own opinion?!…..


Anyway….because I didn’t see the logic in your statement I gave you with the same “no logic” an answer…let me explain to you I hope you will understand this time……

in the article it says the main reason why people can’t get married is the fact they can’t afford to…no jobs …no stable situation….ect…. therefore they are forced to make sex before marriage….this is clear I suppose !….now after reading all this you said “…i wish they could have sex, but they should get married...” ……I was thinking well after knowing the reason why people can not get married you’re still advising them they should make it only after marriage ?!…perhaps instead of advising them to make sex only after marriage you could help financially some of them to get married and so your wish will be realized……. talking with irony of course……

you have money=you marry
you cant marry=you dont have sex
what’s this ?…a mathematical equation? you’re not dealing with numbers….this are human being with emotions and needs……so many factors are involved....it's much complicated than your simple equation...


it's logic, …
it may be logic for you…this doesn’t mean it’s so for all of us…..everyone has got own environment…..background… priorities…own values and principles to consider if a behavior is logical or not….


but people are weak, and they loose it to their animal side and lose control. so they have sex. fortunately, most get luck (thanks to condoms and such) and dont get pregnant... but some dont...
people are not weak…. people are poor …this is the reality you will never admit when talking about the religion.…what you call animal side many people call it natural side….a need just like drinking water or eating food….some people can suppress it some not particularly if 2 peopl love each other and can't change their bad situation…. we all are different from eachother.….


the pregnancy blablabla …..everyone knows perfectly there are so many methods not to get pregnant....


Anyway I won’t add much to this subject…..chelhman and zaki have said enough about it….. it’s not making much sins any more…..some people can’t see far away ….. bad luck then…..

hi everybody,
sorry to say so, but i can't imagine that there people who claim to be muslims and say why should we be controlled by the Holy Quran. in your opinions, what's the sourse of all problems; of this principles'cricis morocco is facing. it's simply because we're so far from our religion and from God. come on! if u say kisses are innocent so having sex too, don't too open it's really silly. if u want to kiss and everything u want it's better to do fe "lhalal"
morocco is fed up of illegal children

shushita, when you have sex you can get pregnant... getting pregnant can lead to trouble, like bastards, legacy problems, names problems and more and more...

i dont see a kiss make such problems.

so i dont put them in the same category. but i'm not religion expert or such... i'm just voicing my opinion.

and i think that it's extreem to be mad at people for kissing or such...

of course, the question isnt here... the question is where is the barrier? if kissing is fine, then touching "sensible" areas is fine aswell? sleeping in the same bad? some "exotic" form of sex?

so once again, i think that Mariage needs economic and material conditions. but fiancees (with the benediction of the family) can practice these kind of "soft core" sexual relations...

but i'm just voicing an opinion, it's not final... i can change my mind.

what do you think shushita? tell us about your opinion? how should it be "ruled"?

Hi everyone,

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shushita
....in your opinions, what's the sourse of all problems; of this principles'cricis morocco is facing. it's simply because we're so far from our religion and from God....

i just can’t believe how badly informed are our Moroccans outside their country about morocco ..

sushita ,
I advice you to read more about all problems our country faces …..better you leave your comfortable life in Europe or where ever you’re located…. go there and live for a couple of years to get a concrete idea about our people perhaps you will wake up…you probably don’t know that, among other things, there are families with 8 members and more living with 1 Euro per day….most of them pray every day……..

there is no doubts that Der Spiegel is a pertinent magazine (I am also a regular reader of the mag)...even though, it remains a magazine which seeks large audience and profit through sensationalism sometimes like proposing headlines with keywords such "sex", "Islam", "Terrorism" ...etc

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Cyril
Der Spiegel is one of my favourite magazines. It does not cater to people looking for "exotic" sex stories.
It is just the openess of the magazine tone (which you find in many European mags) which calls a spade a spade. In less than a second readers know what the article talks about. I call that efficiency.

Sex, sex sex... why is it that the more taboo there is the more interest it gathers.
LeMask, let me clear up the misunderstanding in my sentence..."Or just stop being biased by some brainwashers that by reading the Koran, try to manipulate the way we should behave". That is, I am not saying that the Koran is saying wrong. I am saying that some people read the Koran, and then use it to manipulate others. Now tell me... forgetting about sex... is killing an innocent person allowed by the Koran? of course NOT. So why is it becomeing something so natural? because they were brainwashed. Why do many moroccans see you you with hatred and envy when you walk with your wife downtown in any moroccan street? brainwashing! our people are so easily manipulated, maybe because of unemployment, the future heaven, or by simple stupidity.

To riffman.

You must be a single woman over 30s who has been down that road and trying to justify her action by blaming others. like the people that believe in God and his word. there is nothing in the koran that is wrong. read it and understand it.

To Riffman.

Yeah you are right, some moroccans are easy to manipulate and brainwashed. Just take a look at yourself and what you are saying. You are a lost cause. there is nothing worst than a lost soul. you want us to go back to "al jahilia" where babies were buried alive for no other reason than being born females. where a man can have as many women as he wants, where woman were sex object no more nor less. Thank god for Islam who liberated women and gave them back their dignity. Wake up and smell the flowers. Do you think that men know better, what is good for women, than "God al mighty" hasha lillah. Do you think that "God al mighty" want to harm his subject "Women" by putting some restrictions on her behavior, hasha lillah.Well, if you don't believe in god, the Koran, the prophet mohamed then that's another issue. But if you do you must not chose and pick what is good for your needs and pleasure and what is not. that's what makes a difference between the true believer and the weakest links.

if u say that a kiss is innocent, a touch is innocent so sex without marriage is innocent too?
financial problems ;unemployment and other problems are undeniable but they are just excuses. do u think having a sexual relatioship out of marriage and in secret is the solution? do u think it will help those people feel better? for God's sake, it will make things worse that's all. and I'm not talking out of the blue, i live in Morocco and i know all these things. i know many cases who ended up with a child they couldn't take care of, a desroyed family and a gloomy life for themselves and for that innocent child. So, what is better try to do thinds leggally and be pacient because life is getting harder for all of us, or satisfy our desires without thinking of the results? God made restrictions and rules . He gave us a mind to think with and that's what differentiates us from other criatures.

There's always contraception, it's been known to prevent unwanted pregnancies, or so I hear...

calm down guys!
Shushita, i think that a kiss is more about tenderness than sex... but it's my personnal view, i really dont base my opinion on religious texts or such. i dont know for sure.

but i think that sex outside marriage is forbidden for good reasons. these reasons are economic and linked to the special status of a husband and wife...

once married the husband have a duty toward his wife, it's in the promise of mariage.

but it's also to make the couple take the responsability of the consequences of their union (kids and others)...

anyway... i dont think that a kiss is so heavy when it comes to consequences...

and i personnaly cant blame anyone for a mere kiss... anyway...

Hi all,

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shushita
if u say that a kiss is innocent, a touch is innocent so sex without marriage is innocent too?
financial problems ;unemployment and other problems are undeniable but they are just excuses. do u think having a sexual relatioship out of marriage and in secret is the solution? do u think it will help those people feel better? for God's sake, it will make things worse that's all. and I'm not talking out of the blue, i live in Morocco and i know all these things. i know many cases who ended up with a child they couldn't take care of, a desroyed family and a gloomy life for themselves and for that innocent child. So, what is better try to do thinds leggally and be pacient because life is getting harder for all of us, or satisfy our desires without thinking of the results? God made restrictions and rules . He gave us a mind to think with and that's what differentiates us from other criatures.

dear sushita,

i don't think you know and Mr. LeMAsk the promlems faces our country.....if you do you would not make the religion as a soltution for every miss simply because it's not...the problem is more comlicated than just belive on god and pray everyday...we need a lot of work, efforts and time to get out of our misery and to cach up we're quiete behid .....we particullary need to weak up from the illusion of the great arab world....we need a constructive, real criticsme if we wanna improve......religion is not the solution at least now...when evryone in Morocco got something to eat and can write and read....then we can talk about the rligion.......before that it's not gonna help.....

I was deliberatly provocative in my first message. I believe and
According to many studies:
As human beings our sexuality is inextricably linked to our overall health, happiness, and sense of wellness.
Satisfaction with sexual life has been shown to be an important predictor of satisfaction with life as a whole.
Mortality risk is 50% lower in men with high orgasmic frequency than in men with low orgasmic frequency.


In conclusion : Sex is good for you!
but keep in mind practice safe sex, be equiped with good plastic and get info on contraception.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2006 10:27 by Krim.

indeed Krim, sex is in the basics, like the air we need to breathe or the food...
but should we really allow free sexual life just because of that?

in fact, you have to keep some important things in mind.

as a Muslim you have rights,but you have also duties toward other humans. i take as an example, the child who could come to life after a sexual relation.

he have the right to know his parents. he have the right to get an education, a protection, a home, a family...

you owe him that, like your father did with you. you have to give him what you received.

and you owe it to the society. because as a Muslims, it our duty to help the others, so if we find a baby in the garbage, it will be up to us to take care of him... and i would add that it's also part of it to find the irresponsible monster who had sex outside marriage and abandonned an innocent baby in the garbage because he/she couldnt take of him.

you force me to take care of your kids, then i will force you to not have sex.
i have a very sensible conscience, but i would have no remorse punishing such things.

most of these are selfish people, they care only about themselves... the day we will be acting as an individual in a group of individuals, then maybe we will be able to live correctly.

you say freedom first? i say responsability first.

i dont want to intervene in the lives of the others, but when they do such things they are the ones intervening in mine.

Mostafaa,
First I want to tell you that I am not upset by your comments, but I wonder why you got to those conclusions? I am moslem, I've always been and I will die as one. I never said the Koran is wrong! But I still cannot say if I am less moslem than you, because only God has the right to judge us, whether knowing the Koran by heart or not. By the way, I am not a woman, I am not single, and I am way beyond my thirties!

"the words never lie, the people are the ones who lie" Tahar benjeloun

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Ilhem2
i don't think you know and Mr. LeMAsk the promlems faces our country.....if you do you would not make the religion as a soltution for every miss simply because it's not...the problem is more comlicated than just belive on god and pray everyday...we need a lot of work, efforts and time to get out of our misery and to cach up we're quiete behid .....we particullary need to weak up from the illusion of the great arab world....we need a constructive, real criticsme if we wanna improve......religion is not the solution at least now...when evryone in Morocco got something to eat and can write and read....then we can talk about the rligion.......before that it's not gonna help.....

Two for you Ilhem2, lucid, eloquent and to the point.

salam alayum

Ilham2

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i don't think you know and Mr. LeMAsk the problems faces our country.....if you do you would not make the religion as a solution for every miss simply because it's not...the problem is more complicated than just believe on god and pray everyday...we need a lot of work, efforts and time to get out of our misery and to catch up we're quiete behid .....we particullary need to weak up from the illusion of the great arab world....we need a constructive, real criticsme if we wanna improve......religion is not the solution at least now...when evryone in Morocco got something to eat and can write and read....then we can talk about the rligion.......before that it's not gonna help.....

i just couldn't see how having sex outside marriage whenever person feel want to can help this families get out of ignorance and poverty and how could make us as a country catch up developed nations

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better you leave your comfortable life in Europe or where ever you’re located…. go there and live for a couple of years to get a concrete idea about our people perhaps you will wake up

i have funny feeling u r the one who is disconnected from the realty of the most moroccans special the poor ones ,let me tell u take for expl a girl from a poor or middle class family without any stable income if she feels want have sex outside marriage with A partner ( since they don thave financial tool to established a family and settle down) as your mentioned she can go and do it of course with the use of contraception that costs more THAN 1 Euro .after a while her relation with her PARTNER could last as it could not and most cases it did not (just read moroccan newspaper about crimes) if it happened and she start "dating ' a new guy the story will be repeated again ,no money no marriage ,the QST HERE DO U THINK THIS GIRL THAT IS FINANCIALLY DEPENDS OF HER MOTHER SIS,BROTHER FATHER WITHOUT (most the time ) any qualification can one day be financially independent (the fact that her supporter is only temporary we can not count on our family forever specially if they are poor . so the last option is to get married. do u think who will accept to get married with her if they know she has been having multiple relation before .don t forget she comes from poor family why a guy would get married with her.don t tell me for HER PERSON THEN AGAIN YOU R SO FAR FROM THE REALITY .or she can stay single forever facing loneness i remind again she has not money to entertain her self she does not care about Islam or any religion ( yeah yeah not only religion can be inspiration of inner peace )to get inner peace or stability what left for her ....

if u are talking about those rich or at least with a good income girls you are right then. bcoz they are the ones choose to not get married even they are financially ok which not the case of most moroccans neither is debate. subject.

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the problem is more complicated than just belive on god and pray everyday

with all respect you are the one who needs to get out from your shall and stereotyping about religious people you think they are vain ,dreamer, lazy ,they preach everywhere they go . u can not judge people from couple of exple.


chelhman

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lucid, eloquent and to the point.

sorry man ,eloquency or lucidity does not mean articulate argument for point which point r u talking about .

sarah70, there is one main thing I understood from debating with you and others in this forum :
this is a clash between two kinds of Moroccans, those of us who embrace a millenary tradition that teaches us to take the best of every culture we encounter and add it to our own, without prejudice,
and those who favor a conservation of values at a given time, that time being evidently in the past.
Believe or not, I can respect that, even though I disagree.

Our pragmatism puzzles you sometimes, but it is part of what we've learned from being born outside the country. Your conservatism and your constant reference to old scriptures puzzles us as well, we don't understand how you could have come to the point of not being able to think on your own without having to rely on your faith.

But like I said, we respect your views, however acerbic our remarks might look sometimes.
llah y 3aounkoum

chelhman, exactly, some dont believe in democracy and think that they arent forced to live like everybody else.
i'm interested in independance... and if it means independance from the rest of the Morrocans, so be it...