The veil and the British male elite

Morocco # English board

5 November 2006 02:39

This is an article on counterpunch.org regarding the controversy of the teacher who was dismissed because she refused to take off her niqab in the classroom.
I disagree of course with the article but I also like to listen and challenge my opinions and this article does just that.
There is however a paragraph quoting a book from Fatima Mernissi which sets the record straight on where the Prophet was standing when it came to the veil. It'll undoubtedly unfuriates some, but a fact is fact.
I hope you'll find the reading instructive.

[counterpunch.org]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2006 05:45 by chelhman.

khadijaox81

6 November 2006 01:25

as a female muslim teacher in england, i can perfectly relate to the issue described in the article; i have made the personal choice of not covering either my face or head as i like to think that i'm of the "freedom of choice" school of thought. i have, however, had colleagues who made the opposite choice; namely, to cover their heads and/or faces, which i have always respected. to revert to the article itself,though i can't really pass a judgment on either the teacher's behaviour or the british legal system, i will allow myself to make a few comments on the issues addressed by the article itself; nothing transcending, though: these are only personal feelings that i'd like to expose here for anyone to reflect upon. i'll try, wherever possible, to make it so that my comments follow the order of the article, for easy reference.
1) the issue of the teacher's audibility is raised; namely, pupils and parents have been complaining that the veil made it difficult for pupils to hear what the teacher says in class; i have been observing some of my veiled colleagues teach and have to say that, in all objectivity, hearing them was sometimes an issue: the veil does seem to act as a filter,and those wearing it sound as if they are talking through something, which indeed they are. now i know that many of you will jump and say "i have spoken to veiled women before and could perfectly make out what they were saying"; and i would believe you... except that speaking to an audience ( a group of pupils, for this matter) is not quite the same as speaking to one or 2 persons: don't forget that classrooms are set in such a way that most pupils aren't sitting directly in front of the teacher; so for those who are sitting at the back, or even at the second or third rows, hearing the teacher speak through a veil can be quite a tricky business.
i would say, therefore, that wearing a veil in those circumstances, and knowing how it can affect pupils' understanding of what's going on, and ultimately, their achievement (as both are directly linked), is highly UNPROFESSIONAL. now for the "beat me with a stick" bit: i think that this is reason enough for that teacher to be suspended; sorry if i sound corny or cheesy, but as i know that most of you on this forum aren't teachers, i think it's worth to explain what being a teacher entails: not just teaching a subject, whatever it is, but doing all it takes to allow the pupils to shine to their maximum potential. obvious, isn't it? well, not if you consider that some of them won't be able to hear you properly, and therefore to take notes properly, to hear and follow the instructions properly etc... i will go as far as to say that teachers who stubbornly cling to their veils when they know (and they do know) how it jeopardises pupils' achievement simply don't deserve to be teachers. if they're prepared to put their religion first and not the pupils' interests, as they should be doing, then they don't belong in the classroom.
2)"azmi offered to drop the veil while teaching if no male colleagues were present": that's all well and good, but what about the male pupils themselves, many of whom are teenagers, or going through puberty, and therefore developing feelings of attraction to females? sounds like a double standard applies here.... also called contradiction....
3) " azmi has refused to give up her identity in public spaces": since when does one's identity limit itself to the expression of one's religion? religion is just one of many aspects of human beings' identity, so why does it seem that these days, it is the one that's taking prevalence on all other aspects? when there's so much more to human beings than just religion..... and on top of that, why do people feel that urge to display their religious beliefs in public spaces? surely,it is not a requirement of islam that wherever we go, we should make the fact that we're muslims loud and clear so that people (who don't necessarily care anyway) don't miss it.
4) "british male want to assimilate women into a prototype that caters for their sensibilities and make them feel comfortable" besides being narrow and expeditive, this point of view is quite sexist: i am not british, i am a woman, and i too feel uncomfortable at the time of talking to a woman whose face is completely veiled ( and i'm a muslim!) why? because i feel that the contact is then completely dehumanised, it feels almost like i'm talking to a robot, with no clearly distinguishable expressions or emotions. some of you may not relate to this, but i think that the expression "talking to someone face to face" doesnt' cater for the veil for a reason: because by hiding the face, the veil makes you feel like as though you might as well be talking over the phone as you can't see the facial expressions of the person you're talking to.
this is it for now..... please feel free to send in your comments or questions, and thanks for your participation in this interesting debate once more brought to us by chelhman (thanks to you!)

Almot

6 November 2006 02:01

wow thanks chelhman for the article, and thanks Khadijaox81 for the examples you brought, but God help you defend them these days on our forum.
thanks,

Almot

sxe002

7 November 2006 01:24

Remember the example that says: they won't accept you until you become one of them...

I agree with you Khadijaox81 that covering your mouth will affect the delivery of the lesson in the classroom and yes, if this conudrum affects students'learning, I am all for it to be banned from schools all over the world. However, I am intrigue about the timing of these discussions (if they are) about the veil and its signs. Watch out, one day, the veil will become a garnment displayed wore in cat walk..you need only to have it signed by one of those fashion designer, and suddenly, all people would want it. I don't see no one complaining about the Toureg, particularly men...People feared them before and this created 'us & 'them'.
I think the veil is still mis-understood in the world and if Cherrie Blair wore it tomorrow by choice (I dont see her husband pushing her to do it), then the people will say that she is a humble, modeste and beatiful lady... It is a sign of our time and we are all seeking new understanding of things that we didn't have the courage to question before.
By the way, it is great to see people like you making a difference and thanks Chelhman for keeping this forum hot.

Gibran says: Until when shall the people remain asleep? untill when shal they continue to glorify those who attained greatness by moments of advantage?

chelhman

7 November 2006 04:44

Thanks everyone for participating.
I also agree with khadijaox81, who better to tell us about this, being a teacher herself.

The other part of this issue is the veil being more and more a form of protest instead of an act of faith, like khadijaox81 said, it's a statement of one's identity. As I said earlier on this forum, acting in such way, strips the religion of its spiritual dimension and turns it into a political message.

As much as we can disagree with the British white male narrowmindedness, this incident is nonetheless alarming as it is part of a pattern, it's all over Europe, veils at schools in France, Belgium, from students being suddenly aware of their faith after more than 40 years on average of peaceful schooling without so much as a bump. There was only one incident as I can recall in 1982 in France, it was said that Hassan II intervened himself with the father of the student to put a stop to it.

The pattern is clear to all who would take the blinders off.
Since when religion is an identity ? An identity does not finish with saying "I am a muslim", we are, each and every one of us, is so much more than that.
Something is terribly wrong here, and it's going on all over Europe. And this is not just young people reclaiming their roots, there's more at work here.
We are put in a position, as muslims, to side with the worst possible expression of our religion because it is stamped "Islamophobia", it's not our islam, that's not who we are.

I sincerely believe we should reclaim the lost ground. That woman, the psychos wrecking havok across the globe, the ulemas mouthing off on satellite networks, the bearded guys looking at me with contempt, I crossed once on a sunday market because my friend looked european, all these people are not me, they are not us, this is not what our faith is about.
They're insinuating themselves everywhere in the name of a righteousness that I don't see.

Asking for tolerance is one thing, but this is different, this is a test like in France, testing the limits of tolerance. Provoking society into turning on all of us, until we have no choice but to side with the faith, because they're cloaking themselves in it.

Either we reclaim it and start hammering hard at them, or they'll keep going until they get that "clash of civilizations" they're so hellbent on spawning.
There's of course a shared culpability here by european mismanagement of these issues, but this is not a battleground, this is our society as well, we're here to stay, we're not immigrants, some of us are born here, so we're part of the solution and the problem is partly within our ranks.

To put it simply, they're throwing stones hidden among us, when the other side points the finger, it doesn't differentiate, so it's up to us to weed them out.

Doing that is not collaboration, it's a re-appropriation of the debate, they've had the floor for too long now.
I believe education is the key, re-teaching the faith as it once was.

Just a thought.

sarah70

7 November 2006 06:22

salam alaykum

in one hand covering face is kind of a filter that may let the audience experiencing a problem to hear clearly .

in other hand i want to share with you some thoughts or kinda of i am thinking loud .since i stard reading some posting i notice that most people who don t agree with a women wearing hijab trying to give excuse by saying hijab is political it is not from Islam .let me tell you if u don t like to wear hijab (i mean muslim women) u r free none has right to even comment your decision but for God seek stop saying that is not farida unless you want to dropped Anour soura from the Coran (i know there are many never try to read Coran and only someone else who puts words on their moths ) is it kinda of new learning/ijtihad ?why few inch fabric longer is bothering "muslim" more than non muslims? why u think who ever wear hijab is showing off "look i am muslim' ,why u feel offended as a "muslim" when a hijabi lady pass by ?

Do u know how a lady who wears hijab is suffering outside from all prejeducial "look' and even though she keeps on it,why would she support all that ? show off ? political reason?mentally sick ? ...just think about it.

that women was born and grew in that western country .it is there where she belongs don t try
to tell her go 'back' home ,your hijab has not place here or u r not mature enough lets show u how to integrate in your society to be good citizen.

bcoz she will never remove her hijab u (unless she wears without knowing why ) and you are just putting more pressure on her

and i am sure that we are all aware what can pressure lead to.

sarah70

7 November 2006 07:17

salam alaykum
chelhman

***********

The pattern is clear to all who would take the blinders off.
Since when religion is an identity ? An identity does not finish with saying "I am a muslim", we are, each and every one of us, is so much more than that.
Something is terribly wrong here, and it's going on all over Europe. And this is not just young people reclaiming their roots, there's more at work here.
We are put in a position, as muslims, to side with the worst possible expression of our religion because it is stamped "Islamophobia", it's not our islam, that's not who we are.

I sincerely believe we should reclaim the lost ground. That woman, the psychos wrecking havok across the globe, the ulemas mouthing off on satellite networks, the bearded guys looking at me with contempt, I crossed once on a sunday market because my friend looked european, all these people are not me, they are not us, this is not what our faith is about.
They're insinuating themselves everywhere in the name of a righteousness that I don't see.

Asking for tolerance is one thing, but this is different, this is a test like in France, testing the limits of tolerance. Provoking society into turning on all of us, until we have no choice but to side with the faith, because they're cloaking themselves in it.

Either we reclaim it and start hammering hard at them, or they'll keep going until they get that "clash of civilizations" they're so hellbent on spawning.
There's of course a shared culpability here by european mismanagement of these issues, but this is not a battleground, this is our society as well, we're here to stay, we're not immigrants, some of us are born here, so we're part of the solution and the problem is partly within our ranks.

To put it simply, they're throwing stones hidden among us, when the other side points the finger, it doesn't differentiate, so it's up to us to weed them out.
Doing that is not collaboration, it's a re-appropriation of the debate, they've had the floor for too long now. I believe education is the key, re-teaching the faith as it once was.
Just a thought.

************

i think it looks good now and your message is loud and clear.

chelhman

7 November 2006 12:50

Quote

sarah70
i think it looks good now and your message is loud and clear.

Hi Sarah70,

My views have always been loud and clear, why do you act so surprised ?

I've always said that there's a movement within Europe hellbent on isolating muslims to better control or manipulate them.
Be honest, aren't you the least bit curious about why suddenly these incidents keep happening across Europe in the last 7/10 years ?
Our mothers didn't wear the hijab or the niqab, so what now ? They weren't muslims ?

I've spoken on many occasions at my local mosque with people who were pushing the idea that we were in Dar el 7arb, I saw how they slowly took advantage of every weakness in young muslims to bring them into their fold.
I stopped going to the mosque all together. I thought at first that it was harmless, I've seen it before, as a teenager I also found a structure in religion, it acts as an intellectual scafolding until you can reason on your own, then you can afford to stop taking things so litteraly and looking for meaning behind the scriptures.

These people have a political agenda, they're not here to bring you peace and enlighten you. I don't see how you can deny this, it's a fact.

Once again Sarah70, instead of reasoning, you take my words as an attack. Think about this, think about the last generations, think about our mothers not wearing the hijab, was there something wrong with them ?

khadijaox81

7 November 2006 13:44

Quote
chelhman
Quote

sarah70
i think it looks good now and your message is loud and clear.

Hi Sarah70,

My views have always been loud and clear, why do you act so surprised ?

I've always said that there's a movement within Europe hellbent on isolating muslims to better control or manipulate them.
Be honest, aren't you the least bit curious about why suddenly these incidents keep happening across Europe in the last 7/10 years ?
Our mothers didn't wear the hijab or the niqab, so what now ? They weren't muslims ?

I've spoken on many occasions at my local mosque with people who were pushing the idea that we were in Dar el 7arb, I saw how they slowly took advantage of every weakness in young muslims to bring them into their fold.
I stopped going to the mosque all together. I thought at first that it was harmless, I've seen it before, as a teenager I also found a structure in religion, it acts as an intellectual scafolding until you can reason on your own, then you can afford to stop taking things so litteraly and looking for meaning behind the scriptures.

These people have a political agenda, they're not here to bring you peace and enlighten you. I don't see how you can deny this, it's a fact.

Once again Sarah70, instead of reasoning, you take my words as an attack. Think about this, think about the last generations, think about our mothers not wearing the hijab, was there something wrong with them ?

no chelhman, there was nothing wrong with our mothers, no more than there is today... even though some well-meaning people are working hard to convince them that there is something wrong: for not wearing the full hijab, or niqab, or ikhwani dress or whatever else they think is more appropriate for devout muslim women to wear. anyway..... i can't agree with you more on the fact that they have a political agenda. actually, even one year ago, if someone had told me this, i would've laughed, shrugged and moved on.... until something happened that made me think that maybe they weren't so paranoid after all: i was last year teaching in a school in the north of england.it was a normal school by all standards, comprehensive, with many muslim, hindu, and christian pupils and teachers.... a school that, i liked to think, reflected perfectly the multiculturalism of british society. and then suddenly one day, one of my muslim students, who wore the hijab, presented me with a petition that she wanted me to sign: it had apparently been generated by "the parents of muslim pupils" and asked for the following (take a deep breath, you're gonna need it): 1) the creation of non -mixed classes (boys -only and girls- only classes) 2) that break times (or play times) be scheduled at different times to allow for the separation of genders (so that boys and girls don't find themselves at the same place at the same time), and last but not least: that each gender be taught by teachers of the same gender only. i ought to say, just to contextualise this, that the school already had a policy of inclusion in place, which meant that halal meals were served at the canteen and that muslim pupils had a prayer room at their disposal within the school, an advantage which was granted to them only. i refused to sign the petition and became the most unpopular teacher in school: muslim students wouldn't turn up to my classes for a while, and i would often receive threatening or insulting emails.... but this wasn't enough to stifle my curiosity, so i started an investigation: i was determined to find out who were the real authors of that petition and why they would use teenagers to implement their strategies; i wasn't prepared for the amount of crap that i would dig out though, or for the retaliation that would follow: never in my life had i been on the receiving end of so much fury, anger, outrage and violence. when one day, i received an official fatwa in my mail box,it all became too much for me to bear and i started fearing for my own life, i just decided to move towns. anyway, just for the record: i found out that the petition had been generated by the head of the wahabbi mosque of my town, which was itself managed by another wahabbi mosque which got under the spotlight after the 7/7 attacks on the london underground.... see which one i'm talking about? yes, that very one.... anyway, the mosque held arabic and kuraan classes, which is how it got to enroll school pupils into their ranks. the theory of a political agenda became all too clear when a pupil told me that she had often been told that one day muslims would rule britain as well as the rest of europe, and that she had to be prepared. the "kingdom of islam", as she put it, had to be built little by little, and it had to start at school, which is how the whole petition took shape. i tried to question her further, but she wouldn't say any more,and let me know, as she left, that she would have to go home and pray for forgiveness for having talked to a "kefra"; it did cross my mind to ask her who had branded me as such but i guess that all of you who are reading this will have figured it out anyway.... so yes, there is something going on, right under our noses, on our very streets and in our neighborhoods... it is in good shape already and it has legions of people prepared to kill and be killed for it. don't be fooled to believe that it's islam, though: it's something very yellow and rotten; it stinks and unless we scrub it out ourselves, it won't go.

sarah70

7 November 2006 14:35

salam alaykum

chelhman
i highlighted your "posting" ,to emphasize the textual structure of it how u start, by putting (not directly )fear on people about their religion

Quote
[color=#FF0000
i highlighted your "posting" ,to emphasize the textual structure of it how u start, by putting (not directly )fear on people about their religion[/color]]

Quote
[color=#FF0000
Something is terribly wrong here, and it's going on all over Europe. And this is not just young people reclaiming their roots, there's more at work here[/color]]

Quote
[color=#FF0000
We are put in a position, as muslims, to side with the worst possible expression of our religion[/color]]

Quote
[color=#FF0000
Provoking society into turning on all of us, until we have no choice but to side with the faith[/color],]

Quote
[color=#FF0000
the ulemas mouthing off on satellite networks, the bearded guys looking at me with contempt[/color]]

Quote
[color=#FF0000
To put it simply, they're throwing stones hidden among us[/color]]

then you start calling for something

Quote
[color=#330099
they've had the floor for too long now[/color]]

Quote
[color=#330099
I sincerely believe we should reclaim the lost ground[/color]]

Quote
[color=#330099
Either we reclaim it and start hammering hard at them[/color],]

you sound more preaching than simple posting of viewpoint.

sarah70

7 November 2006 15:42

salam alaykum

chelhman

Quote
Our mothers didn't wear the hijab or the niqab, so what now ? They weren't muslims ?

my mother sisters ,aunts nieces do not wear hijab i am almost the only one in the family who wears, they are free i always respect their choice i never tried to preach or even speak about it i am sure they are really aware about it and my mom will be always caring lovely mother nothing is changed here but does not mean i will do they do (where is my personality here )
your reaction here about hijab that is not Farida in our religion and it is only "implemented ' by some group either is extreme reaction (from your side) on fears about some ignoring groups or individuals who are speaking wrongly on behalf of whole muslims (i can not deny that) OR your reaction is in purpose in both cases i don t see any deffirence since both of you are hurting the image of our noble peaceful religion .the message of Islam balance between Deen and Douniya .no one has a right to say or even to feel superior bcoz we as muslims know very well the true teaching of Islam .it never told us to consider ourselves superior to any nation the superiority will be at the hereafter not in this life .and only our Lord who will decide that based on our deeds in this life NONE can say I am better or good muslim or even human being that is arrogance.

chelhman

7 November 2006 16:30

Hi again Sarah70,

I'm sorry to say this again, but you keep adopting a protective posture.
You're taking this personally, it's not about you, reading you on this forum I have no doubt that you've opted for the hijab as an act of faith.
My posts do not point in your direction, simply because I'm not talking about religion but about people who use religion as a trojan horse for political purposes.
I've never advocated for people to be afraid of their religion, read me again, I'm saying they should reclaim it.
I'd like your honest opinion :
do you seriously believe that people saying Europe or the West in general is Dar al 7arb are religious ?
Do you identify with them ? Do they speak for you ?

My opinion after observing them is that they using our faith to promote chaos, their tactics are obvious, that's what I meant when I said "they're throwing stones hidden among us".
They want us to feel attacked, to isolate ourselves, not to melt into the societies we live in.
Melting into a society does not mean to give up your faith or your philosophies, it's quite the opposite, you add new knowledge to your own.
But what they're whispering in people's ears is that somehow new knowledge is corruption. Sounds familiar ?
When did new knowledge, new approaches become synonymous with corruption ?

Things are not black and white sarah70.

You haven't answered about our mothers, were they less muslim because they didn't wear the hijab or the niqab ?
Why the sudden urge ?
To go even further, is someone like me, advocating for an enlightened open islam, less muslim in yours eyes ?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2006 07:50 by chelhman.

chelhman

7 November 2006 17:02

My dear Sarah70, any chance I'll ever get anything from you being the result of reasoning instead quoting me scriptures ? smiling smiley

Almot

7 November 2006 20:20

And what Khadijaox81 said is exactly their way of working, violence and fear if you dare not to joint.
“You’re with us or you’re against us” At one point this infamous phrase from W bush was criticized by many around the world and is still the same even today. But I believe it wasn’t only his point of view, but also that always adopted by fundamentalists whether they were Muslims or non-Muslims. The ones who cannot stand anyone who adheres to values which are different from theirs, and who see anyone who is not with “them” going to hell.
In many Islamic forums, all you need to say before you are labeled, as Kafir, is that you are open minded or that you don’t see all western-world as your enemy, or if you simply believe that they have their own way of life, to see them as enemy because of that is in itself not at all from Islamic teaching, even more, it goes totally against it. There is even no need to go to the scripture in regards of who in the eyes of Allah is the better person.
I believe in our holy Book the Quran, and I’m saying this just so that “…” won’t tell me go and read the quran because I do. But I can’t believe that Allah SWT want us not to discus the Quran and use Ijtihad to integrate and incorporate it’s teaching into the new world. We’ll be doing harm to our religion if we don’t do so. NOT CHANGING, ADOPTING and incorporating.
I do not believe that we should, today, interpret the surates that give men the right to beat their wives if they do wrong the way it was always interpreted. I believe these men should go to jail for doing that. And I ask the ones talking about scriptures here with all due respect, this simple question: do you think a man has the right to hit beat on his wife? But before you answer you should know that your answer could put you in the eyes of many in one of two categories, a good Muslim who does exactly what the quran says, or a progressive Muslim who follows the teaching of our holy book, yet, knows that it’s just not cool to hit a women no matter what the circumstances are?
And since many like to invoke scriptures: I don’t believe that if I die today, that I would want my daughter to get only half of what her brother gets as inheritance. It even tic me off just to think about it, Would anyone? The explanation from scholars says that one of the reasons is that in a Muslim family, a women will likely go back to live with her brother in case she were to divorce, and that is wonderful, but look at the society we live in today, many women are the ones supporting families, they are educated and can work and even save broke or unemployed brothers from poverty, they should receive their inheritance as equal in my view, that is ijtihad in my view, but as long as it plays in favor of men, why change it.
Look at what Dr. Quaradawi just did about borrowing from banks to buy a house, for so long it was a no no in Islam, but through ijtihad and knowing there’s no way for many people to purchase a house but through banking and yes interests, it became an OK thing to do, and that is ones again ijtihad in Islam.

I also think that if a women is married to an abuser who beat and harm her, that she should have the right to divorce his ass, not only that, but take legal action against him too. Let me hear one woman in here saying that it’s ok if he hit me, I deserved it and I’m his wife after all, ridiculous!!
In the eyes of psychopaths, if you want to qualify as Kafir and receive a passport to hell, Then these, and many other points like these put you right on the road to Kafirdom, a planet where all who dare to question the authority if an Imam, a fatwa, refuse to sign a stupid petition, or has doubt even about a camas or semicolon in the our religion is sent with a one way ticket to be punished. If these psychos know anything about Islam, they should know that Islam has a God to protect it; the Quran has a mighty God to protect it and does not need a Coalition of the willing to do that.
Peace,
Chelhman, let me know how’s life in Kafirdom planet,

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2006 10:31 by Almot.

Almot

sxe002

7 November 2006 21:53

By the way, where is Le Mask. I bet he is preparing a plan of attack-beware Chelhman

Really, it is good to read different point of view but definitely, there is a lot of similarities in your discussions. I beleive going back to the roots and start again is the only way forward. These days, We, Muslims, are so caught up in defending ourselves that we forgot to move forward with real, meaninghful debates, including the question of 'wearing the veil'. I think we are engulfed in 'blaming each other' such as Iran blames Iraq, Afghanistan blames Pakistan and others blame Saudi Arabia and everyone blames everyone...and so on and on... It's like we are on a train heading to the same direction sitting facing each other and some of us says ' well, I am not with you so I will go to the other side'and vice versa. Instead, no one said, lets change the course of the train and lay new tracks.

Our ummah is merciful and caring but sadly, what we show is anger, portrayal, guilt and most of all, we are glued to the floor enabled to do anything at all and this is when some people take advantage of others. Some of you in this forum have mentioned FEAR and as you all know, it is a weapon for individual subjectivity and the rest is history

By the way Khadijaox81, sorry to hear about your experience and you did well not to sign. Well done

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