3 words describes Tariq Ali: a western tool (just like Bin Laden in the 80' BTW). Why does he not use his "skills" on writing about the real problems of the Arab countries and not about a very small extremist minority?? I tell you why because his western masters whants him to make the muslims belive that their problems lies fundamantaly in Islam. And what better why to convince the muslims by letting a fellow "muslim" tell them the "truth". It is very easy to be a recognised muslim author in the west. It doesn't require any skills at all. Only thing you have to do is write a book about how bad Islam is and how it is the root to all the worlds problems and you are guarantied succes.
Tariq Ali is not a muslim, he's not even an Arab, he's from Pakistan. Are we talking about the same man ? Here's a couple of videos, the first one is a debate with the unbearable Christopher Hitchens and the second one is from the University of Berkeley, it's from the series "Conversation with History", it's worth taking the time to watch it, he gives his take on the rise and fall of the muslim empires (Arabs & Ottomans), quite interesting :
Kutchia, what's wrong exactly on his take on the fall of the muslim empires ? You've seen his debate with Christopher Hitchens I assume, he's no friend to the neocons and their propaganda. I really don't see where he could be a tool. Furthermore, I happen to agree on the fact that religion as a form of government is hindering progress of arab societies, it's pretty obvious. Even when when it's not governing, the laws derived from it, have systematically bogged down societies. Islam is no exception, christianity went through the same process until societies were finally secularized.
I honestly don't see how anyone can't disagree, given the state of muslim societies across the world and you can add muslim communities in Europe when penetrated by islamism which insists on governing the minds of muslims and dreams of governing the states. For the record, secularism is not the negation of religion, but the separation of powers, state and religious.
Dear Chelman! Please don't look at how Islam is practised or misused by some arabic regims. They use Islam as a tool so the people will think that they actually rule by Islamic law, which is nonsense. And don't compare islam with christianity either those two religions are totaly different regarding practicing devine law. You can't just arguse that because the west is modern after they seperated the state from the church and islamic countries should therefor do the same to be modern (most of the arabic countries are actually not ruled by the sharia, but some fractions from it). The west has a different history, culture and religion and you can't compare the Islamic world with the west. The people in the islamic world don't whant to seperate the relgion from the state (only a minority) but that's not the same as that they whant to be ruled by a conservatice anti progresive regime. Anti islamic propogandits (or how ever it is spelled) are constantly trying to convince us that it is black and white that either we dismiss Islam an become modern or stay as muslims and still be in the middleage. You either with us or against us, and I am sorry to say this but you have obviosly fallen for that propaganda and I don't mean to offend you. I am just not that easy to be convinced by neither of the two extrimist groups where you have the seculraists in one end (who whants to sell all their values, history, tradiotions culture and religion just to be recognised by the west as good uncle Toms) and then you have the relgious nut heads in the other end who whants a conservative world just like in the "good" all days as if nothing new have happend.
There is a middleway
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2007 12:22 by Kutchia.
My thoughts on the subject have been shaped well before the current bipolar climate, so I'm not influenced by it. I wasn't talking about "modernity", it's a vague notion and can easily be deconstructed, for instance oil-rich Gulf countries are modern but religion is still the norm for legislation. I was talking about intellectual thinking, one can't deny that any religion when used as a ruling body hinders bold intellectual thinking, because religion when ruling is about applying a dogma as a set of prohibitions. Every great current of philosophy has been fought and rejected by religions because it inserts doubt, and doubt is the enemy of any ruling body, especially one that claims to derive its power from God. Not to mention of course progress on human rights, religions had no problem accomodating the inferior rank of women for centuries for instance. You're right about the fact that very few in the arab world would vote for a secular reform, but it is to be compared to the level of understanding of the general population. Secularism is still perceived as a negation of religion, even here on this forum where we have well-educated people, we still have to define it from the outset or the debates are "for religion" or "against religion". It's basically simple, a governement rules on practical matters (economical, social, defense) but you don't want a governement to rule on the way you think or simply prohibit free-thinking.
Religion as a ruling body was necessary when we were savages, killing each other on sight, but that time has passed, human societies have outgrown the simple need for prohibitions as safeguards, we are not children, we are more complex, centuries old dogma are not enough to legislate. Faith should be left in the hands of individuals, a governement has no business regulating faith.
I look at it this way : the conclusion reached by secular societies are not specific to the West or Christianity, it's merely a human thinking process common to all of us. Muslims will reach that conclusion, but not before the education level rises in the general population. Right now, it's like a Stockholm syndrom at play, they're in love with the very thinking that's been keeping them captive.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2007 04:05 by chelhman.
I am not convinced. I think the current form of balance in Morocco is the way forward to build something from. It's a fine balance which can sertisfy most people, and only a small minority in both wings complain about either too much religon in the or too litle.
chargement...
