Abdessalam Yassine terrosist or loyalist?

Morocco # English board

22 April 2008 23:18

for the moroccan living inside morocco or outside morocco, what are your views on Abdessalam Yassine ?
1. is he a terrorist or what?
2. does he want to cripple the unjust power of King Mohmd?
3. does he want to be the president of maroc?
4. does he want to spread the original teachings of islam throughout maroc?
5. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women wearing bikinis at beaches?
6. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women marrying the non-moslum tourists and westerners?
7. does he want to establish an ISLAMIC a true ISLAMIC moslum state?
8. does he want to bring in power a good moslum president for morocco?
9. does he want to finish the haram and illegal things happening in maroc?

islah

23 April 2008 00:33

Quote
vvvTTTvvv00
for the moroccan living inside morocco or outside morocco, what are your views on Abdessalam Yassine ?
1. is he a terrorist or what? ------> Don't think so
2. does he want to cripple the unjust power of King Mohmd?-------> Nope, it's just a pretext
3. does he want to be the president of maroc? ------> Maybe, or someone of his family, for example her daughter
4. does he want to spread the original teachings of islam throughout maroc? what original teaching ?lying ? [www.youtube.com]
5. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women wearing bikinis at beaches?
6. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women marrying the non-moslum tourists and westerners?
7. does he want to establish an ISLAMIC a true ISLAMIC moslum state? Too funny 8. does he want to bring in power a good moslum president for morocco? He never present us someone who is interesting where is it ?
9. does he want to finish the haram and illegal things happening in maroc? Only God know what really he wants

[center]Une seule et unique :zen: I S L A H :zen: [/center]

vvvTTTvvv00

23 April 2008 02:59

Quote
islah
Quote
vvvTTTvvv00
for the moroccan living inside morocco or outside morocco, what are your views on Abdessalam Yassine ?
1. is he a terrorist or what? ------> Don't think so
2. does he want to cripple the unjust power of King Mohmd?-------> Nope, it's just a pretext
3. does he want to be the president of maroc? ------> Maybe, or someone of his family, for example her daughter
4. does he want to spread the original teachings of islam throughout maroc? what original teaching ?lying ? [www.youtube.com]
5. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women wearing bikinis at beaches?
6. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women marrying the non-moslum tourists and westerners?
7. does he want to establish an ISLAMIC a true ISLAMIC moslum state? Too funny 8. does he want to bring in power a good moslum president for morocco? He never present us someone who is interesting where is it ?
9. does he want to finish the haram and illegal things happening in maroc? Only God know what really he wants

hahahhahaha thankU answering my questionings.
but i did not understand the youtube video link you send me. i didnt understand what yassine was saying in the youtube video.can u tell me little bit?what lies?please tell me

islah

23 April 2008 03:27

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vvvTTTvvv00
hahahhahaha thankU answering my questionings.
but i did not understand the youtube video link you send me. i didnt understand what yassine was saying in the youtube video.can u tell me little bit?what lies?please tell me

u r welcome man

on this video, yassine said: if some parents don't permeted to their daugthers to be present on Al Adl wal i7ssan conference , they can lie and tell them that they want to go pass some exams or visit some friends eye rolling smiley

.which means that he makes lying hallal on this case

[center]Une seule et unique :zen: I S L A H :zen: [/center]

vvvTTTvvv00

23 April 2008 03:29

lol shame on maroc i am disgusted being moroccan lol
but its very funny to watch king mahamad and yassine to be both bad peoples

islah

23 April 2008 03:38

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vvvTTTvvv00
lol shame on maroc i am disgusted being moroccan lol
but its very funny to watch king mahamad and yassine to be both bad peoples

No, No

never be shamed being moroccan, cause we are moroccan for us not for the others

[center]Une seule et unique :zen: I S L A H :zen: [/center]

vvvTTTvvv00

23 April 2008 07:21

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islah
Quote
vvvTTTvvv00
lol shame on maroc i am disgusted being moroccan lol
but its very funny to watch king mahamad and yassine to be both bad peoples
No, No

never be shamed being moroccan, cause we are moroccan for us not for the others

i prayings to allah to send angels down to maroc to help peoplese

adds

23 April 2008 10:19

Moroccan identity is your privilege and your dignity; if you are not proud of it you do not deserve it. We are the ones who should be ashamed to hear our people have no self-esteem. You work on being a better person; any nationality acquired afterwards comes after being Moroccan. If you feel you are Dutch you are Moroccan Dutch. Moroccan American, Moroccan Spanish etc
One has to learn to live with certain realities and accept them the way how they are and can’t be otherwise. I love Morocco, mind you being a true Moroccan is not easy but its great feeling and experience.

\\\\////
Adidas Moroccan Alidas

chelhman

23 April 2008 16:45

Quote

vvvTTTvvv00
for the moroccan living inside morocco or outside morocco, what are your views on Abdessalam Yassine ?
1. is he a terrorist or what?
2. does he want to cripple the unjust power of King Mohmd?
3. does he want to be the president of maroc?
4. does he want to spread the original teachings of islam throughout maroc?
5. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women wearing bikinis at beaches?
6. does he want to stop moslum moroccan women marrying the non-moslum tourists and westerners?
7. does he want to establish an ISLAMIC a true ISLAMIC moslum state?
8. does he want to bring in power a good moslum president for morocco?
9. does he want to finish the haram and illegal things happening in maroc?

No, he's not a terrorist, he's an old man who's lost his mind a long time ago. His daughter is really the issue, she's the one running things, so the question should have been about her.
She wants to overthrow the monarchy and establish an islamic republic, she said so in no uncertain terms.

The main pillars of Al Adl wal i7ssane are poverty and illiteracy, I would also add stupidity. And yes, she dreams about being the president of an "islamic republic of Morocco", a disastrous concept that does not have a chance to ever happen, because at the core Moroccans are not radical and will never allow the strictness of islamic law to be applied.
Have you been to a Marjane supermarket recently ? Just stand at the alcohol section and watch if you see any european at the counter. You'll notice that the customers are all Moroccans who enjoy having a drink from time to time, because it's been in our culture for centuries. At the center of it all is "choice", Moroccans can choose to live within the strict rules of religion or walk away from them but still keep the core belief intact. Take that away from us and you'll understand the meaning of "insurgency" smiling smiley

The only problem is the hypocrisy that doesn't let that "choice" into law, right now the state just winks at you and say it's ok, "live your life as you wish", but still keeps a leach on your neck by keeping feudal laws in place.
No one has the right or the responsibility to impose to us a path rather than another, Al Adl wal i7ssane wants to put an even tighter leach on our necks... thanks but no thanks.

kamal a

25 April 2008 01:51

AssalamoAlaikom,

The leader of “Al adl wal ihsan” and its executive members have chosen the path they think it represents their general perception of all aspects of life, religious and not religious. They‘ve an ideology and the structure of their “Al Jama3” was planned and made by a high qualified members some of them hold high degrees in human science, philosophy, religious study and even some are involved in sensitive scientific deep research …….

“Al Adl Wal Ihsan” is “Jama3 Islamiya” with a main concern to revive the faith and the love of Allah and the love of his messenger (pbuh)
The pillars of “Al Jama3” are ten:
1: fellowship and Jama3 (assouhba wa aljama3)
2: chanting (dikr)
3: righteousness (sidk)
4: contribution (al badl)
5: science (al ilm)
6: work (al amal)
7: good conduct (assamt al hassan)
8: self control (ta3oudda)
9: economy (iktisad)
10: Jihad (jihad annafs, daawaa liALLAH….)

“Al Jama3” is not a political party and her leader refused to join the political games because the man is honest and loyal to his principles, he said that politically he can bring nothing to the country at this time and the lonely contribution he can do now is on the ground: to bring back and revive good conduct to our social life that was tarnished by obscenity and indencency, in brief by globalization and its effects. Among what they ‘re used to do organizing what they call “halakate dikr” doors open to everyone to take part in debates, organizing religious ceremonies in mosques to feast religious events, making trip for schooling children to widen their knowledge and experience etc…
The leader’s daughter, Nadia made a declaration years ago saying that she is for a Moroccan Republic. “Majliss Irchad” the highest executive representatives of “Al Jama3” declared that Nadia is only an adherent and her point of view has nothing to do with their policy or perception.

Some words for my dear friend chelhman: now that you ‘ve an idea about the real pillar of “Al Jama3”, their concern and their future aspirations, can you please stop your hostility and your false judgment for anything related to religion??? Can you please stop using words that I’m sure you still don’t know its real meaning (radical, strictness of Islam…)
You claimed the pillars of these people are poverty, illiteracy and stupidity, do you‘ve proves??? Weren’t you talking about yourself by any chance??? Isn’t what you wrote an evidence of you ignorance??? Didn’t you give an image of the obscure world you’re living in???
You‘re the one who defends “the right to choose” you made your choice so respect people’s choice and don’t interfere in their sect or whatever… Please leave them in peace as they did no harm to you, mind to preserve the culture of enjoying a drink from time to time. Didn’t you say “you’ll notice that the customers are all Moroccans who enjoy having a drink from time to time, because it’s been in our culture for centuries” please mind to talk about yourself because we’re not all drunkards.

Thank you

chelhman

25 April 2008 11:54

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kamal a
Some words for my dear friend chelhman: now that you ‘ve an idea about the real pillar of “Al Jama3”, their concern and their future aspirations, can you please stop your hostility and your false judgment for anything related to religion??? Can you please stop using words that I’m sure you still don’t know its real meaning (radical, strictness of Islam…)
You claimed the pillars of these people are poverty, illiteracy and stupidity, do you‘ve proves??? Weren’t you talking about yourself by any chance??? Isn’t what you wrote an evidence of you ignorance??? Didn’t you give an image of the obscure world you’re living in???
You‘re the one who defends “the right to choose” you made your choice so respect people’s choice and don’t interfere in their sect or whatever… Please leave them in peace as they did no harm to you, mind to preserve the culture of enjoying a drink from time to time. Didn’t you say “you’ll notice that the customers are all Moroccans who enjoy having a drink from time to time, because it’s been in our culture for centuries” please mind to talk about yourself because we’re not all drunkards.

It's not hostility per say, it's a profound mistrust towards people who use religion as a political tool, and Adl wal i7ssane is doing exactly that.
The "obscure world I'm living in", as you so colorfully put it, is reality, it's not the fantasy of a world governed by religion.
Again as in the other post, if you're unable to defend your views, don't just copy/paste my arguments : "the right to choose" is exactly what this ideology is trying to erase.
Be honest, have you ever seen an islamic republic where freedom of expression, human rights, woman's rights more specifically, political opposition, art in all its forms, are respected ? Or just barely tolerated ?

I know more than you think about that pathetic sect, from the time they splintered from the movement of cheikh Hamza. You should follow the financial trail and see how money is at the center of the Yassine family. Look at the purchases of real estate in Canada or the loads of money collected in Europe with no accountability whatsoever and tell me if it is to help the poor illiterate schmucks who follow that sect.
You can quote me the noble pillars of that sect all you want, the reality is light years away from that.

As for the "drunkards" remark, tell that to the millions of Moroccans who do drink from time to time and are still very much muslims. Wine has been made in our country for over 2000 years, it's been introduced by the Romans, or didn't you know that ? Al ma7ia is still made in remote villages all over the country, you never heard of the Sefrou ma7ia ? Or the one made in Souss from figues ? The one from Sefrou is even used as medication. And don't get me starting on the kif habits in the north, it's the same thing, it's deeply rooted into the culture (also used as medication by the way).
And again before you twist my words, I don't advocate drinking, and for the record I never get drunk, I'm saying our society has always had this permissiveness and it is a symptom of its tolerant and healthy nature. And I'm proud of that nature, proud to have mosques and bars on the same street sometimes.
But that system can only survive if the two respect each other, calling millions of Moroccans "drunkards" isn't my idea of respect.
And that system isn't going to survive in a Adl wal i7ssane Morocco.

islah

25 April 2008 14:41

Quote
chelhman
I know more than you think about that pathetic sect, from the time they splintered from the movement of cheikh Hamza. You should follow the financial trail and see how money is at the center of the Yassine family. Look at the purchases of real estate in Canada or the loads of money collected in Europe with no accountability whatsoever and tell me if it is to help the poor illiterate schmucks who follow that sect.
You can quote me the noble pillars of that sect all you want, the reality is light years away from that.

I agree with u in this point of view

[center]Une seule et unique :zen: I S L A H :zen: [/center]

kamal a

27 April 2008 07:46

AssalamoAlaikom,

Please a link that proof these people are dishonest [purchases of real estate in Canada or the loads of money collected in Europe and all the blabla….]

How can you use religion for political tools if you already have neither a political party nor you adhere to any of it?
And if by any chance this man decides to enter the world of politics, do you have any objection? Do you have any proof that this man will oppress the political opposition, fight against the art all
Its forms and all the blabla…? Did he make any media-related declaration asking Moroccan to get ready to embrace his sect by force or whatever?

Why do you rush to judge people that you know nothing about their ideology moreover politically their CV is blank and right now they did nothing to be evaluated or criticized. do you judge them only because in your opinion Islamic parties overseas disappoint you, do you think your rushing judgment is fair? You claimed to know more than I think about this pathetic sect so how many books did the leader of this sect write? What’s his first and last book? What his books ‘re talking about? What did Cheik Yussuf Karadaoui say about him? What did selective intellectuals in the Middle East say about his personality and what comments did they give regarding his writings? If by any chance you read one of his books, did you notice any contradiction in his writings or did he say anything peculiar that doesn’t go with the principles of the religion? Was it reported in the past or at any time that he blamed or criticized those who treat him badly like you do? If you‘re a Muslim you should know that one of the Muslim characteristic is the respect of the eldest.

What is Islam in the first place? Isn’t it the acceptance and submission to ALLAH almighty? Doesn’t it mean that we have to worship ALLAH, to follow his commands and avoid all kind of sins? Can you please explain to me how can you be a very much Muslim while transgressing ALLAH’s limit? Didn’t you say “As for the "drunkards" remark, tell that to the millions of Moroccans who do drink from time to time and are still very much muslims” // \\ “And I'm proud of that nature, proud to have mosques and bars on the same street sometimes”

Chelhman: you do advocate drinking and you made it clear by saying it is a symptom of its tolerant and healthy nature. Or what would you call it, a gratis publicity for ma7ya …..??? Don’t try to twist your sayings as it makes you ridiculous and funny at the same time.

Friend, I defend my views with realism and not with unrealistic superficial imagination. I didn’t treat people that I don’t know badly like you do and I didn’t accuse anyone without giving proof. Unfortunately you proved that all these bad characteristics are stamped on your forehead.

Why this copy-paste always makes you ill at ease though it’s your nice logo. I think you should be proud of it, it’s your trade mark // \\ sorry it summarizes your nice liberal world where purity mixes immorality to give us your nice system, system of the new modern Islam, Islam of the new liberal generation who will be proud of that nature, proud to have mosques and bars on the same street sometimes. you 're proud of it and non-believers 're proud of you as you're giving them a valuable service. they don't need to move to Morocco as there's someone who's doing the job, only ALLLAH knows if it's gratis..... how glad should they be.........

Tbarkallah alik ousafi,

AssalamoAlaika

chelhman

27 April 2008 17:35

Quote

kamal a
Please a link that proof these people are dishonest

Read me again, I never used the word "dishonest", I asked you, as a sympathizer of that sect, how does purchasing real estate in Canada (800 000 $)* helps the poor in Morocco. Where's the money collected in Europe ? You still haven't answered.

Quote

moreover politically their CV is blank and right now they did nothing to be evaluated or criticized

That's the whole point, Nadia Yassine has no intention of entering the political arena, it's easier to score points by staying outside and criticizing from the bleachers. She stirred up things among the simpletons following her sect hoping they'll take to the streets, and then, and only then, position herself as an obvious leader to take over.

As for the rest, I don't need to read about what Al Qardawi said or any other moron who spews hatred on the airwaves, using islam as a political tool is wrong, there's no debating that point.
Politics and religion is like oil and water, they don't mix.
If Nadia Yassine wants to lead, I have no problem with it, there is space within the political arena, first she takes that ugly hijab off her head, as I told you on the other post, it's not moroccan. It would show me that she respects and intends to promote our traditions, intends to promote Morocco. I am tired of seeing our culture being trampled on.
Second, take religion out of the rethoric, economical problems need economical answers, technical answers, not prayers. I don't care and don't need to hear about the beliefs of the person leading, I don't elect imams or rabbis (yes, we are also jewish in Morocco, or have you erased them ?), I elect people with a political program who can help us progress, I don't care if that person worships a cow or a monkey in his/her private life.
Running a country is a serious matter, religion has nothing to do with it. We need pragmatism more than ever.

*Sources for the canada real estate : [www.telquel-online.com]
[www.telquel-online.com]

Kutchia

27 April 2008 18:53

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chelhman
first she takes that ugly hijab off her head

So it is ok for you to tell others what they should wear? You and your kind are hypocrites and blinded by your hate for islam.

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chelhman
(yes, we are also jewish in Morocco, or have you erased them ?

Why do you bring jews into this discussion? And where did Kamal specificly "erase" them since you acuse him to be some kind of antisemit?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 06:58 by Kutchia.

chelhman

27 April 2008 19:01

Kutchia,

Read it again, we're Moroccans, the hijab is not moroccan, we have other garments that do not send a political message if the person wishes to cover her head. Don't just react in a pavlovian way, read carefully : Have you seen the hijab worn in our country before the 90's ?

I mentioned "rabbis" in a specific context, to point the diversity of our culture, read it again. Let me say it again : I don't care what a person's beliefs are if he runs for office, I expect him to be efficient in his job, what that person worships in his private life in none of my concern.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 07:26 by chelhman.

islah

27 April 2008 19:15

Quote
chelhman
we're Moroccans, the hijab is not moroccan.

of course we r moroccan and we have our wearing style, even in hijab

hijab is not an exclusivity to the orient or others persons it's an islamic obligation

[center]Une seule et unique :zen: I S L A H :zen: [/center]

chelhman

27 April 2008 19:43

Quote

islah
hijab is not an exclusivity to the orient or others persons it's an islamic obligation

No it's not, it is open to interpretation, there are other viewpoints from muslim scholars :

VIBES: Is hijab (i.e. covering face) a mandatory Islamic requirement, and was it ever a mandatory requirement?

Javed Ghamidi: There is absolutely no foundation for this in Islam. The Holy Qur'an prescribes four directives in this regard, of which the two are for both men and women alike, and the two are related to women alone because of their special characteristics. These directives may be explained as: when men and women meet, they should restrain their gazes and cover their private parts well. The women, in addition, are required to cover their bosoms and not to display their ornaments except for those which are worn on body parts that are naturally kept uncovered.
Source : [www.understanding-islam.com]

Ghamidi* is an exegete of the quran, there are many other scholars who disagree with the current popular belief that hijab is an obligation.

*[en.wikipedia.org]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 07:44 by chelhman.

Kutchia

27 April 2008 20:05

Quote
chelhman
Kutchia,

Read it again, we're Moroccans, the hijab is not moroccan, we have other garments that do not send a political message if the person wishes to cover her head. Don't just react in a pavlovian way, read carefully : Have you seen the hijab worn in our country before the 90's ?

I mentioned "rabbis" in a specific context, to point the diversity of our culture, read it again. Let me say it again : I don't care what a person's beliefs are if he runs for office, I expect him to be efficient in his job, what that person worships in his private life in none of my concern.

Neither are jeans or caps, will you ban those too?
Where did you get the Idea that the hijab was not worn in our country before the 90's (the one only covering the hair, the one covering the face should actually not be allowed because of practical reasons regarding face recognition) . Lol in the 70's and 80's they did. My mom and all her sisters did, heck most of the woman in the village did. I even have a picture with my grand grandmother wearing a scarf covering her hair and that picture was taken during the Spanish occupation.

You sound like an extrimist, just like the ones you are fighting, only difference is the ideoligy! It sounds like You preach tolerance ofcourse as long as peoplle follow you own way of life.
What bothers me most is that you guys are a minority yet you still get so much attention.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 08:06 by Kutchia.

chelhman

27 April 2008 20:32

Kutchia,

Jeans and caps don't symbolize a militant position.
And you're wrong, the hijab in its form today was not worn in our country, our mothers and grandmothers wore, depending on the region, en'gèb, addal, l'7af, al 7aïk...etc but not the current hijab which appeared in the 90's.
I'll give you another one : the hijab you see now has gained popularity with the Bani Sadr militias in Iran, it was a political gesture*. Now there's people we want to resemble smiling smiley

Actually in urban areas like Casablanca, young women did not cover their hair in the 70's and 80's, older women wore jellaba with en'gèb.

Are you actually reading what I write or interpreting ? Women can cover their hair if they want, that's not the point, what I'm saying is that the hijab is not moroccan and has been introduced massively in the 90's with the influence of sat channels.
I'm defending a centuries old culture being polluted by a politicized form of religion. This has nothing to do islam bashing. Read carefully before you jump the gun.

*[sandiego.indymedia.org]

Kutchia

27 April 2008 23:14

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chelhman
Jeans and caps don't symbolize a militant position

Yes it does! Its American and if any nation is militant its the US thus Jeans and Caps symbolize a militant position. I am using the same "logical arguments" as you do when you argue the hijab stands for a militarisim.

Quote
chelhman
And you're wrong, the hijab in its form today was not worn in our country, our mothers and grandmothers wore, depending on the region, en'gèb, addal, l'7af, al 7aïk...etc but not the current hijab which appeared in the 90's

No you are wrong, maybee they called it something different, the purpose is the same, they covered their hair because they are muslims and also because of tradition.

Quote
chelhman
I'm defending a centuries old culture being polluted by a politicized form of religion. This has nothing to do islam bashing. Read carefully before you jump the gun.

What about defending old centuries culture being polluted by western modernisation? like McDonald's, Emanicipitation, western soap operas, MTV videos Etc. (no I do not intend to do so, no do I intend to ban hijab in the parlement) Heck Even here in Denmark a Christian country (yes the country with the cartoons) allow muslim woman to wear hijab in the parlemant

People have the right to adopt a polticized form of religion and they can proporgand for it, you should defend their rights for free speech, not make them shut up and not allow them to wear hijab. Of course as long as their methods are peacfull.

I am out.

islah

27 April 2008 23:33

Quote
chelhman

Ghamidi* is an exegete of the quran, there are many other scholars who disagree with the current popular belief that hijab is an obligation.

*[en.wikipedia.org]

but the other say that is an obligation winking smiley

[center]Une seule et unique :zen: I S L A H :zen: [/center]

kamal a

28 April 2008 06:36

AssalamoAlaikom,

Kutchia: two years ago i had a chat in a US forum of discussion with a Christian and believe me he was much open and tolerant to Islam than Chelhman. For sure he tried to explain his perspective and point of view regarding his own teaching but he never showed hostility or disgust to Islam or Muslims. more than that, he said that one of his best friends is a Muslim. he also visited Egypt and said how much he was impressed not only by pyramid and beauty of the desert but also by the culture of Muslims and their willingness to stick to their habits and teaching.
with all my respect to chelhman who showed incomparable fierce to this religion i think he's still young and he'll get sooner or later the opportunity to learn more about this religion and it's teaching.

with all the best for him

chelhman

28 April 2008 10:05

Kutchia,

I really don't see how jeans and caps symbolize a religion or any political movement. Could you be more specific ? You say it's american but what exact political message do you get from it ? And when did Americans try to legislate in our country ?

I agree about the western culture invading the airwaves, however it's been present for a long time now and hasn't been able to destroy our culture and traditions, which is not the case for the eastern one which brought a militant islam from the end of the 80's on, and is far more insidious and dangerous because it uses an already present religion in the country, like a parasite would do to destroy its host.

Again I really wish you'd read carefully what I write. I don't take issue with the hair covering, I take issue the hijab in its form today, which is not in our traditions. As I said if you had read, in the Souss region, women's garments cover far more than the hijab and I have no problem with it, quite the opposite, I find it esthetically appealing. My issue is with the political tone brought by the scarf called now the "hijab" and again was not present before the 90's in our country.
Check your facts.

As for free speech, I'm all for it, but I seriously doubt that dissent would be allowed in an islamic republic as proposed by Al Adl. You can answer the question Kamal chose to ignore : have you ever seen an islamic republic where freedom of expression, human rights, woman's rights more specifically, political opposition, art in all its forms, are respected ?
The problem isn't solely with islam, christianity had the same problem until they secularized their system, jews as well, Israel is the perfect example of religion mixed with politics and the disastrous result.
Even if I wanted to defend the concept of politicized religion, I wouldn't know how, all through history it has brought nothing but a trail of dead bodies and human rights violations.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2008 06:26 by chelhman.

whiteshark

28 April 2008 12:45

Hi all, first let me tell u that am very impressed of the magority of comments posted here, as far as am concerned , let me tell u one thing Mr chelhman about humain and women ´s rights in islamic republics,the Islam was d first religion to give women their entire rights in their life, islam has nothing to do with what some islamic republics leaders do with their nations, just don t generalize it,

Kutchia

30 April 2008 19:15

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chelhman
I really don't see how jeans and caps symbolize a religion or any political movement. Could you be more specific ? You say it's american but what exact political message do you get from it ?

Well jeans was/is banned in some regimes because it represents the American way of life aka Capitalism (or new colonialism). So just because you don't see a parallel between jeans and capitalism dosn't mean that others don't. It's the same when you draw a paralel between hijab and extremism. My argument is that you can't draw a parallel.

Quote
chelhman
And when did Americans try to legislate in our country ?.

How do you know they don't try? Maybee they don't try it in a direct way, but my knowledge of the American foreign¨politics is that they not only try but have very likely succeded. Just look on the fate of some democratic elected goverments in other countries i.e. Chile 1973. Even private companies not only try but do legislate in our country and who has elected them?

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chelhman
I agree about the western culture invading the airwaves, however it's been present for a long time now and hasn't been able to destroy our culture and traditions,

You are totally wrong. There too many examples and I don't know where to start, but one of the things that bothers me most is the trend of keeping small dogs as pets.
I am not a conservertist as i have the impression you are, but I simply just don't like some of the new trends thats all. I am not against those who likes the new trends as long as they don't force me to like the new trends i.e. force me to buy a pet dog.

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chelhman
which is not the case for the eastern one which brought a militant islam from the end of the 80's on, and is far more insidious and dangerous because it uses an already present religion in the country, like a parasite would do to destroy its host.

We have a system in Morocco that deals with voilent individuals just fine. I realy don't see whay this has anything to do with baning hijab and any legal islamic party. Why do you keep draw a parallel between islamic parties the hijab and voilence?

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chelhman
Again I really wish you'd read carefully what I write. I don't take issue with the hair covering, I take issue the hijab in its form today, which is not in our traditions. As I said if you had read, in the Souss region, women's garments cover far more than the hijab and I have no problem with it, quite the opposite, I find it esthetically appealing. My issue is with the political tone brought by the scarf called now the "hijab" and again was not present before the 90's in our country.
Check your facts.

I really read and understand your arguments. I just don't think your arguments are valid.

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chelhman
As for free speech, I'm all for it, but I seriously doubt that dissent would be allowed in an islamic republic as proposed by Al Adl. You can answer the question Kamal chose to ignore : have you ever seen an islamic republic where freedom of expression, human rights, woman's rights more specifically, political opposition, art in all its forms, are respected ?
The problem isn't solely with islam, christianity had the same problem until they secularized their system, jews as well, Israel is the perfect example of religion mixed with politics and the disastrous result.
Even if I wanted to defend the concept of politicized religion, I wouldn't know how, all through history it has brought nothing but a trail of dead bodies and human rights violations.

Let me ask you this: Do you see any non islamic arabic country that does? Maybee its not the set of rules maybee its the culture or the peoplle that something wrong with. Have you ever asked your self that question?!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2008 07:18 by Kutchia.

chelhman

30 April 2008 21:40

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Kutchia
Well jeans was/is banned in some regimes because it represents the American way of life aka Capitalism (or new colonialism). So just because you don't see a parallel between jeans and capitalism dosn't mean that others don't. It's the same when you draw a paralel between hijab and extremism. My argument is that you can't draw a parallel.

Where are they banned ? Iran ? Now, there's a club we definitely want to join smiling smiley

Capitalism with all its shortcomings isn't extreme, let's keep things in perspective. And I never used the word "extreme" referring to islam, I was talking about our culture being trampled on. Funny how your brain interprets my words...

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How do you know they don't try? Maybee they don't try it in a direct way, but my knowledge of the American foreign¨politics is that they not only try but have very likely succeded. Just look on the fate of some democratic elected goverments in other countries i.e. Chile 1973. Even private companies not only try but do legislate in our country and who has elected them?

True, they can influence policy but it's always for economical interests, but my point was on personal freedoms. An islamic model like Iran or Saudia Arabia can not seriously be compared to a western model in terms of freedom of expression or freedom of thinking for that matter. Morocco is in-between, it's a delicate balance, a balance which is being jeopardized these days.

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You are totally wrong. There too many examples and I don't know where to start, but one of the things that bothers me most is the trend of keeping small dogs as pets.
I am not a conservertist as i have the impression you are, but I simply just don't like some of the new trends thats all. I am not against those who likes the new trends as long as they don't force me to like the new trends i.e. force me to buy a pet dog.

If keeping pets is what the West is hitting us with, we'll be fine...
But I see your point. Those trends are not being imposed so I couldn't care less. Again, freedom to choose, a right we won't have under an islamic republic.

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Let me ask you this: Do you see any non islamic arabic country that does? Maybee its not the set of rules maybee its the culture or the peoplle that something wrong with. Have you ever asked your self that question?!

You mean arabic people are incapable of applying those rules, regardless of religion ? First, religion is always present to some degree or another and I'd say religion as a template to govern or structure arabic societies is the decisive factor and is the root of the failure we see. Islam has lost its technological edge a long time ago, but still behaves as if it was the 10th century when it peaked, a concept called "the supremacy complex" by Irshad Manji.
So it creates autistic people who remain on the defensive everytime islam is mentioned, as we have demonstrated on every subject where religion is mentioned.
In my opinion, we won't truly progress unless our societies are secularized and a wall is built between state and religion, that way no arabic leader will use islam as a governing body and religion can be debated as a philosophical issue and not be as it is now a kind of manual to be followed to the letter like sheep.

P.S : If you've read this earlier I had to edit the last part, I misread your question and my answer was off subject.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2008 11:32 by chelhman.

Kutchia

1 May 2008 10:28

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chelhman
Funny how your brain interprets my words...

Same reply goes to your brain winking smiley

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chelhman
True, they can influence policy but it's always for economical interests,...

So as long as the reasons for the influence is economic it's ok with you. So you rather have a scenario where a democratic elected goverment is overthrown by the US because the goverment rejected to privatize the public sector (i.e. free water and medical care). Rather than a scenario where a democratic elected islamic goverment rule?

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chelhman
If keeping pets is what the West is hitting us with, we'll be fine...
But I see your point. Those trends are not being imposed so I couldn't care less. Again, freedom to choose, a right we won't have under an islamic republic.

I only mentioned dogs as pets I really like cats winking smiley

Why wouldn't you have a freedom to choose under an Islamic republic (and don't mention Iran or Saudi Arabia)

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chelhman
You mean arabic people are incapable of applying those rules, regardless of religion ?

I don't mean that I asked a question! Do you mean that islam is the reason for the corruption culture we have in Morocco? Are you also in that opinion that the decline of Zimbabwe or South Africa is caused by Islam?

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chelhman
First, religion is always present to some degree or another and I'd say religion as a template to govern or structure arabic societies is the decisive factor and is the root of the failure we see.

You are tottaly wrong, the neglection of edducational, political, agricultural and economic reforms and the high corruption rate are the main reasons. Religion has nothing to do with the that. Syria is far more secular than Israel and which country will you rather live in? I know where I will live.
¨

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chelhman
Islam has lost its technological edge a long time ago, but still behaves as if it was the 10th century when it peaked, a concept called "the supremacy complex" by Irshad Manji.

If we use your arguments then Islam will never have had an technological edge!! Why did the muslims loose it, could it maybee be because of corrupted regimes too much power can cause a lot of bad things, (just look at the Roman empire or the US for that mater). Maybee Islam lost the social, freedom and technologival edge because the peoplle lost the Idea of true Islam.

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chelhman
So it creates autistic people who remain on the defensive everytime islam is mentioned, as we have demonstrated on every subject where religion is mentioned.

I agree on you in this. Muslims are too romantised about the past or focused on blaming everything and everyone on the missery instead of looking on the real issues. Some blame the west others blame Islam.

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chelhman
In my opinion, we won't truly progress unless our societies are secularized and a wall is built between state and religion, that way no arabic leader will use islam as a governing body and religion can be debated as a philosophical issue and not be as it is now a kind of manual to be followed to the letter like sheep.

I know what you mean and I do understand. I just don't agree that a secularized society can fix the problems, you are too focused on secularism vs Islam. You like the Islamist are to foocused on the Ideoligy you think that baning Islamists and install a secularist government can fix the missery and the islamists thinks that baning secularists and install a islamic ruled government can fix everything.- I say you are both wrong.

PS: No I did not read your first post but I like the tone of this debate. So thank you for that! winking smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2008 10:32 by Kutchia.

chelhman

1 May 2008 15:54

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Kutchia
So as long as the reasons for the influence is economic it's ok with you. So you rather have a scenario where a democratic elected goverment is overthrown by the US because the goverment rejected to privatize the public sector (i.e. free water and medical care). Rather than a scenario where a democratic elected islamic goverment rule?

No, that's not what I said, I simply pointed out that the US didn't try to legislate in our country because that's not what drives them. Islamists on the other hand interfere through legislation, among other things, because their motives are ideological. Look at the propaganda campaign during the passing of the moudawana law for instance.

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Why wouldn't you have a freedom to choose under an Islamic republic

Everything the islamists have shown so far points to that. Show me an islamic theocracy, or a theocracy period, that ever advanced human development. I know the classic apologetic argument : "Oh, that's because they don't follow true islam". No, that's just to ease the painful reality, religion is not designed to rule, it is designed to offer spiritual guidance. It may contain a "survival kit" to organize small communities but it can't work on a nation in a globalized world. It's been demonstrated again and again all through human history, but islamists think they have the "true message" so they keep going at it...at our expense...

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I don't mean that I asked a question! Do you mean that islam is the reason for the corruption culture we have in Morocco? Are you also in that opinion that the decline of Zimbabwe or South Africa is caused by Islam?

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You are tottaly wrong, the neglection of edducational, political, agricultural and economic reforms and the high corruption rate are the main reasons. Religion has nothing to do with the that. Syria is far more secular than Israel and which country will you rather live in? I know where I will live.

The second part answers the first part, it's all about education. But again in an educated society, religion is kept miles away from the state. Israel is a special case, because its very birth and existence is due to religion so it is unique and can't be compared to other models.
To answer your question, I'd say I'd rather live in Israel without a doubt, because religious laws apply to jews, I wouldn't be affected, and because it has one of the largest moroccan community in the world, so I'll be able to enjoy moroccan food with my fellow citizens over there if I get some sudden craving smiling smiley

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If we use your arguments then Islam will never have had an technological edge!! Why did the muslims loose it, could it maybee be because of corrupted regimes too much power can cause a lot of bad things, (just look at the Roman empire or the US for that mater). Maybee Islam lost the social, freedom and technologival edge because the peoplle lost the Idea of true Islam

True, corruption is one of the reasons islam collapsed as a civilization but there are also the classical mistakes powerful civilizations make, just look at the US now, arrogance, selfrighteousness, hubris...etc.
The era of religious ruling is over, islam will never come back as a civilization, the sooner muslims accept that, the sooner islam can enter the philosophical realm and grow, instead of acting out in frustration, and sinking its followers further and further into inadequacy.

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I know what you mean and I do understand. I just don't agree that a secularized society can fix the problems, you are too focused on secularism vs Islam. You like the Islamist are to foocused on the Ideoligy you think that baning Islamists and install a secularist government can fix the missery and the islamists thinks that banin+g secularists and install a islamic ruled government can fix everything.- I say you are both wrong.

No, actually I want the islamists center stage, I want a all-out debate with them to deconstruct their propaganda. It was a mistake to stop Nadia Yassine from expressing herself in Morocco for example, an old reflex from the HII era. I want her to speak and be debated by economical experts on how she plans to run the country.
In a secular society, islamists can speak under the banner of free speech, in an islamic republic seculars are heretics.
And I never said secularizing the country would fix misery, you're extrapolating here. Misery is about economy, secularism is about civilization, they're two different subjects.

As for the tone of the debate, that's because you've forwarded ideas that can be debated instead of a lot of PUBH did that, the quran says that...That's what usually sets me off smiling smiley

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2008 07:22 by chelhman.

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