Morocco # English board

Assalamu alaykom frothers and systers :


Allah (swt) says in Qur'an:
'You will not find any people who believe in Allah & the last day, loving those who resist Allah & his Apostle.
Even though they be their Fathers or sons, or their, brothers or kindred. For such Allah has written faith in their hearts & strengthened them with a spirit from himself. And he will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever. Allah will be pleased with them & they with him. They are the party of Allah. Truly it is the party of Allah that will achieve felicity.' (58, 22)

In the above ayat, Allah (swt) has clearly documented the status and rank of all the Sahaba (ra). For this reason it is narrated from Abdullah ibn Mugafar that RasulAllah (saw) said:
"Fear Allah, Fear Allah! Do not make hostility with my Sahaba after me. Whoever loves them, love them due to his love for me, whoever is adverse to them is so, due to his adversity to me.
He who insults them, he has insulted me (saw), lie who insults me has insulted Allah (swt).
He who insults Allah (swt) surely Allah (swt) will insult HIM. "

From the Qur'an and Hadith it is established that love and respect of the Sahaba (ra) and their ways is Wajib on all Muslmins. It is wajib to hold your tongue and keep silent other than speaking about them in the wrong way.

It is saddening, in the month of Muhurram lots of people speak adversely about those Sahaba (ra) who should be revered & they take the incident of the Shahada of Hadrat Hussain (ra) as a point of beating themselves and wailing, which has been specifically prohibited in the Hadith. To carry out these type of actions removes a person from the straight path.

It is stipulated in the Hadith which actions should be practised on the 10th Muhurram (Ash'ura) and are:

Ibn Abbas (ra) relates: "I have not seen RasulAllah (saw) mentioning the reward of fasting on the day of Ash'ura more than any other day. And I have not seen that RasulAllah (saw) mentioned the reward of fasting in the month of Ramadan more than any other month in the year. " (Bukhari, Muslim)

Imam Gazaali (rah) says:"The reason that the day of Ash'ura has been given the importance is that in the beginning of Islam the fast of Ash'ura was Fard, when Allah (swt) revealed the ayat of fasting in Ramadan as being Fard, the fast of Ash'ura was retracted to a Nafil. And that ibadat which was Fard and was retracted to a Nafil is better than that nafil which was never a Fard act." (Muzalisul-Abrar)


Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) relates:"RasulAllah (saw) did hijrah from Makkah to Medina. At that time RasulAllah (saw) saw the Jews keeping fast on the day of Ash'ura (10th Muharram). He (saw) asked them: 'is this a special day in your religion?'they saidyes, this is a very important day for us, on this day Allah (swt) freed Musa (as) and bani Israel, and drowned the army of Phiroan, as a means of thanking Allah(swT) Musa (as) fasted so we also fast on this day.'RasulAllah (saw) saidI have more right to Musa(AS) than you.' Then RasulAllah (saw) himself would keep the fast of Ash'ura and ordered the Ummah to do the same. (Bukhari, Muslim)

The fast of Ash'ura is kept on the 10th Muharram, it is also stated from Ibn Abbas that: "RasulAllah (saw) said inshAllah next year I will keep a fast on the 9th Muharram to go against the way of the Jews' but Nabi (saw) was taken before this by Allah (swt)" (Muslim)

It is established from the Ulema that the fast of the 9th Muharram should be kept with Ash'ura, if you cannot
keep this fast, then keep the fast of the 11th Muharram. (Ma'ariful Hadith)

May Allah (swt) grant us-the correct understanding of the month of Muharram, lead us on the correct path and keep us away from all wrongs and innovations. May Allah (swt) accept our efforts and forgive our shortcomings, Ameen.


Salam

Arabi77,

It seems to me the day of Ash'ura is specifically dedicated to children, where received many presents. It's close to noel for Christians. Isn’t it?

So I never see the connection with religion, and I don’t know What is the so perfect has a day like Ash'ura.

Do you really think that Allah like make preference between days? No, I'm not sure?!

A+

Assalamo 3ala man itaba3a al hoda,

elcapone,

>>>"It seems to me the day of Ash'ura is specifically dedicated to children".
things are not always what they seem to be:

it's actually a day when it is recommended to fast, and you are also supposed to fast the day before or the day after as well. it's only a one of two days of (recommended) fasting for muslims.
muslim aids are the 'Aid al fitr at end of the fasting month (ramadan) and 'Aid al adha (10th of do al hijja).

So why does the 10th of Muharram need to have anything to do with a pagan 'Christian' festival? Christmas is actually a version taken over by the Christians of the pagan winter solstice celebration of Europe, that's where the pine tree, the lights, the particular regional food, the specific 'rites', etc etc comes from. As you will see from what I've posted, this doesn't have much to do with the 10th of Muharram.

>>>"Do you really think that Allah like make preference between days? No, I'm not sure?!"

What makes you say that? its best not to say things that are just your opinion as if they are religious facts without proof.

Muslims have a special prayer on Fridays, so do the Jews on Saturdays and the Christians on Sunday:

It's not up to you to tell them to do it a day earlier or a day afterwords.

Salam

Arabi77,

What I know, the day is a part of the time which is a concept created by man to drive and to organize his live. Generally, man use time to give a sense to live.

Indeed, every day is overloaded by various events which bring us a lot of emotions and feelings. Therefore, the importance of event's day is characterized by the level of the emotion’s intensity. These emotions marked the human and our nature wants us to remember them forever. To satisfy this desire the man invents what we call fast day that marks the moment when the event has happened.

So Ash'ura, Christmas, and other days as 14 July in France are the time marked the human to remember something, but characterized them as the sacred may be is a human exaggeration.

a+

Salam
From what I heard, Ashura is the day when Hussein, his family and followers were killed and massacred, and if this is true then why should we celebrate like the poeple do in all north Africa. I have no idea how poeple in Middle east celebrate it but In north Africa, There is the Bound fire, The toys and The dried fruits.
If the incident was really true, personally I dont think we should be happy about it yet we need to mourn that day. please can anyone explain what is Ashura Exactly? I am very confused and I am seeking to know the truth???
Thank you & Salam.

Assalamo 3alikom,

Brother Sunny,

The matter is very simple:
The 10th of Muharram is the day when Allah soubhanah wa ta'ala drowned the Pharoh and saved Moussa (3alaihi assalam). Please see my original post with the hadith concerning it.

For this purpose our dear prophet Mohammad (sala allaho 3alihi wa sallam) has recommended that muslims fast on this day (NOT CELEBRATE IT), although it's not fard fast. It is also recommended to fast one other day at the same time (the 9th or 11th of Muharram), so as to be diffrent from the Jews who fast on the 10th only.


The 10th of Muharram is also the day when the incident (tragedy) of saydona Hussein happened.
Some of the shi3a (may Allah guide them to the right path) take this opportunity to tarnish the reputation of the sahaba radya allaho 3anhom and take part in some celebrations that have nothing to do with islam (but are totally contrary to our religion).

As for some of the people in Morocco who celebrate this day ...toys and the dried fruit..
I am afraid but it's just the popular culture of North Africa, these celebrations have nothing to do with the Islam, but some people have imitated the Jewish community that used to live in Morocco.


I hope my response is clear and that I have answered your questions.

May Allah soubhanah guide us the the right path as keep us away from innovations in religion.

Salam

Salam brother Arabi77, I thank you very much for the clarification, It really helped but the death of Hussein was very harsh if the Suni did really killed him and his family, per what I heard from the Shiit, it was the suni who killled them thinking that they killed some pople coming from the mountain because Mu3awiya et Zaied oredered them and mislead them to do so, I am very interested to know the truth because who was killed that time was part of Saiduna Mohamad SAW his grand son...
Thank you again for your clarification
Salam et Jazaka Allah!!

Assalamo 3alikom,

Sister Wonder05,

Imam Husayn (Sayyid al-Shuhada', "the lord among martyrs", the second child of Ali and Fatimah (may Allah bless them), was born in the year 4 A.H

Imam Husayn was ordered by Yazid, the ruler of the time, to pay allegience, which he refused. (Yazid's father had specifically counselled Yazid not to ask for Husayn's allegiance in his will, but his son ignored this advice.)

Paying allegiance (bay'ah) was an old Arab practice which was carried out in important matters such as that of kingship and governorship. Those who were ruled, and especially the well-known among them, would give their hand in allegiance, agreement and obedience to their king or prince and in this way would show their support for his actions.

Yazid ordered the governor of Medina either to force a pledge of allegiance from Imam Husayn or send his head to Damascus.
Imam Husayn then went to Mecca for sanctuary, and after four months there learnt of a plot to kill him during the pilgrammage rites. To avoid such a crime taking place in Mecca, he left with his entourage for Iraq, and was martyred along with his loyal followers in the desert en route by an army under Yazid's control, on the 10th of Muharram. This event is obviously a horrendous tragedy, and the acts of those committing these deeds are against the spirit of Islam completely.

However, the acts of Yazid (and his father) are not to be taken as an example of all of the sahaba, as some people do, nor as a reason to disrespect the sahaba.

Salam

Salam Arabi77,
Was Imam Hussein killed around this time of the year? Ashura?? if not why the Shiit relate Ashura with the death of Imam Hussein???
Thank you & Salam.

Salam Arabi77,

From what I know, the Muslim calendar was defined after prophet Mohamed dead. Hence, the 10th of Muharam is a translation from other date reference. Do you know what date reference used at this time?

It seems, according to your post, that 10th muharam is an important event also for Jews. So, how can you explain the divergence to fast the same event? Do you see a fundamental raison for that, or just divergence for diverging?

A+

Assalamo 3alikom,


Sunny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Salam Arabi77,
> Was Imam Hussein killed around this time of the
> year? Ashura?? if not why the Shiit relate Ashura
> with the death of Imam Hussein???
> Thank you & Salam.

Imam Hussein was killed (in a horrendous tragedy) in the desert of Karbala on the 10th of Muharram.

To the Muslims the 10th of Muharram is a day where it's highly recommended to fast.

For some misguided Chiia (May Allah guides them to the strait path) it’s a day where they re-enact the tragedy of Imam Hussein by attacking the Sahaba (companions of the Prophet Muhammad (sws), beating themselves, taking to the streets and shouting, crying and inflicting harm on themselves which obviously has nothing to do with Islam.

Salam

Salaam,

Sunny a écrit:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Salam
> From what I heard, Ashura is the day when Hussein,
> his family and followers were killed and
> massacred, and if this is true then why should we
> celebrate like the poeple do in all north Africa.
> I have no idea how poeple in Middle east celebrate
> it but In north Africa, There is the Bound fire,
> The toys and The dried fruits.
> If the incident was really true, personally I dont
> think we should be happy about it yet we need to
> mourn that day. please can anyone explain what is
> Ashura Exactly? I am very confused and I am
> seeking to know the truth???
> Thank you & Salam.


This is exactly what happened to me!. For a very long time I was celebrating Ashura as a happy event... Only to discover later on that it is a day of the biggest trajedy of Islamic history... The massacre of Hussain RAA Sayid Al-Chohada2 and Sayid Chabab Al-Janah and the grand son of the prophet SAAWS. What a shame to see Moroccans celebrating this day in joy while it is a day of fasting, extreme reflection. It is the responsibility of the clergy in place to explain what this day is about and what should be done... It is a shame that many sunnis muslims do not even know that this day is the day the grand son of the prophet SAAWS was massacred! what a sad thing and what a calamity not to be remembred!

In this matter the muslims chi3a are very close to the truth than the muslims sunnis. And in this matter I do follow the chi3a thinking and behaviour. May Allah SWT guide all of us.

hello mdlazreg;

Who is close to the truth? Shiite or Sunnis?

Actually, it’s very hard to give an honest response, especially when the main matter is about religious.
Each part has own interpretation about what was happened in this day, how this incident was happened, and what is the origin fact for this sad event.

Concerning fast achoura ; honestly I prefer the toys and the dried fruits than a horrible show executed in the streets with a people wetted of blood and waved swords.

You know, for a people who have never made contact with Shiite, may be able to express negative comments about Shiite and also about Islam.

I refuse to see a such men in dramatic state and many people don't understand why these people push themselves to an extreme position only for fasting a sad day. And ask many legitimate questions: are there other manners to celebrate such day?

I'm sorry to be straightforward with you, the response is yes.

A+

Salam,
This is to mdlazreg, I agree with you in the sense that we were mislead about This Day Ashura but not to the extent to say that Chiit are more close to the truth Than the Sunii because, the Shiit claim that Ali is in the level parallel to the Prophet Mohamad SAW. It doesn't sound reasonalble, The prophet SAW was the last prophets. Shiit has some good preaches and so does the Suni. So that is why it's better no to relate yourself to one or the other but just follow the Quoran and the Suna.
God bless us all.
Salam..

Salaam elcapone,

I do agree with what you said and I do not see any contradiction with my opinion. My opinion is that the day of Ash'ura is a day of fasting and sad reflection not a day of joy and celebration. How can I celebrate in joy a day the grandson of the prophet SAAWS died on?! I just can not. The debate on how to celebrate this day in sadeness and reflection is a legetimate debate going on among chi3as circles. My point here is that this day should be celebrated in sadness not how to express this sadness.

Salaam Wonder05,

>>>>>>So that is why it's better no to relate yourself to one or the other but just follow the Quoran and the Suna.

I fully agree with this from a religious point of view and I disagree from a political point of view. I believe that solving problems starts with understanding them not hiding them and avoiding to talk about them. There is a huge misunderstanding among the sunnis about what the shi3as truly believe. The shi3as are more educated about the theological beliefs of the sunnis, this is unfortunatly not true among the sunnis. As a proof and example I can give you your proper saying :


>>>>>>the Shiit claim that Ali is in the level parallel to the Prophet Mohamed SAAWS

There is nothing that can be farther from the truth than this unbased and false accusation. I challenge you to give me ONE authority in the theological system of the chi3as that supports this accusation. I have met gzilions of chi3as and I never heard such a thing. To the contrary their respect to the prophet SAAWS and His household is unparalleled: For example when the name of the prophet SAAWS is montiened, a sunni would say a mere SAAWS, a chi3i would stand up, would put his hand on his chest and would say SAAWS in expression of deep love and respect to the prophet SAAWS... I witnessed this behaviour with my own eyes. Actually the respect Ali RAA enjoys among the chi3as comes from the fact that he is part of the household of the prophet Mohamed SAAWS. The concept of Ahl-Al-Bayt is a central point of chi3a belief system.

Many sunnis would even say that the chi3as claim that Ali was supposed to be the prophet and that Gabreil ASWS commited a mistake and he gave the prophethood to Mohamed SAAWS!!! All this fabricated stories are very far from the truth. The truth is that the chi3as believe in the prophet Mohamed SAAWS as the last prophet from Allah SWT and they believe also in the Coran as the word of Allah SWT and have deep respect to Ahl-Al-Bayt[the household of the prophet SAAWS (Ali RAA among others)].

The diffrence is not a theological one AT ALL. It is purely a political one. After the death of the prophet Mohamed SAAWS, election was held to appoint His successor. Like any election, many opinions and different views were held, some supported Ali RAA to become the new leader while others supported Abu Bakr RAA to be elected. Abu Bakr RAA was elected and Ali RAA gave him his allegeance in his wisdom and in accordance with the will of the majority. This unfortunatly did not happen when the time of election came to select between Yazid and Hussain RAA half a century later. Despite the fact that the majority was with Hussain RAA and despite him beeing the legetimate new leader of the Muslim Omat, the army of Yazid took illigaly power and massacred brutally Hussain RAA establishing the FIRST MONARCHY IN ISLAMIC HISTORY AND DEVIDING THE ISLAMIC NATION TO CHI3AS AND SUNNAS.

If I was at that time, I would have been in the side of Hussain RAA because I do believe he was on the side of justice. Yazid was not. In other words I would have been called Chi3as at that time.

Needless to say that since the army of Yazid won the war, a propagonda started to diabolize the chi3as and to launch against them all kind of accusations. Among the stupid accusations the one that says the chi3as do not believe in Mohamed SAAWS as a prophet... Or to purely say the chi3as are not muslims while they say La Ilaha Ila Allah Mohamed Rasoul Allah!!!!.

History is written by the winners. Which means half of it is forgotten each time.

To put it differently, the chi3as and the sunnis are two political parties under the same religious and theological umbrella. Expressing different political views is guaranteed under Islamic law as far as I know.

Personnaly I would vote for a chi3a governement system even if I was raised as a sunni because I think sunni countries are more prone to establish dictatorships.

I would never say I am a muslim chi3i or a muslim sunni but I would defintly say I have chi3i political conviction and I do not see this as an offence to any of my brothers who have a sunni political conviction as long as they clearly distance themselves from the unjust side who massacred Hussain RAA on the black day of Karbela2.

Needless to say that I condemn strongly the stupid attackers of chi3as mosques in Iraq and invite any one to read more about Islam seen through chi3as eyes :

[www.al-islam.org]

In the hope this will bring a better understanding of our Islamic history and hence a unified view.

Assalamou Alaykum,

Salaam mdlazreg,

First of all I would like to say that as a muslim I seek the unity of the muslim Umma, and I would love if one day Sunni and Chiia sat down together and decided to reconcile their differences and let the past go.

As for the Chi3a respect for the Prophet, SAAWS, I believe that all Muslims can and should have a deep respect for the Prophet SAAWS and it is hard to generalise the level of this respect and define it by sect, there is much room for error in doing this and it is divisive of the umma.

I agree that the massacre of Imam Husayn was a terrible thing. However I do not understand how this terrible wrong action justifies or permits some practices that are clearly forbidden in Islam.

For example:

-In the day of 'Achoura Chi3a beate themselves, take to the streets and start shouting, crying and inflicting harm on themselves.
This is not Islamic. In Islam if you mourn somebody's death you do that in silence, and such a thing does not exceed 40 days)

-The Decorations they put around Hussain RAA has nothing to do with Islam, the Chi3a pilgrimmage to Karbala as if it were Mecca?

-The authority they give to their Mollah is such that they put large pictures of them inside the mosques:
I accidentally visited a chi3a mosque, I stepped in to find myself face to face with a huge picture of Moqtada a Sadr. Since I had come to pray to Allah soubhanah (and not with the authority or intercession of anyone else) I left to perform my prayers at home.

-Another innovation is what the call the 'Hussaini earth' on which they put their forehead when performing the sallat (prayers)...?

Finally I would say beware of the Mollah's dictatorship, if the Mollahs were true muslim leaders they would condemn these innovations, and work torwards unity of the umma.
They seem to use the Hussein tragedy to gain political and financial power.

Salam

Salaam Arabi77,

All the points you raised are subjects of intense debats among the chi3as themselves. Some stuff are clearly rubbish and as you pointed out have nothing to do with Islam but some other stuff have some significants deep history explanations embeeded in the the chi3a minds. Condemening them categorically would not help to acheive the unity you are talking about. For example the pilegrimage to Karbala is not the equivalent of the Mecca one in the mind of the chi3as. The extreme expression of sadness about Hussain RAA massacre is explained by the fact that not only he is the grand son of the prophet SAAWS but also his death is the cause of the split of the muslim nation. Also because he is taken as a symbol of resistance to unjust rulers and unjust regimes by glorifying the concept of martyrdom [this explains the Iranien revolution and the defait of Israel by HizboAllah]. The emotions in the day of 3ashoura go very high, yet this is condemned by many chi3a schoolars. I personally "prefer" a chi3i harming himself in sadness over the death of Hussain RAA to a sunni exploding himself in a chi3i mosque!

They are many folkloric expressions of chi3a beleifs which should not be taken to represent what truly the knowledgeable chi3as bleive. For example in Iran "The head of Omar" is an insult in reference to Omar Ibn Al-Khatab RAA, however knowledgeable scholers will never tolerate this since the Sahaba of the prophet SAAWS are ALL respected. The political disagreement does not yield a feeling of hate and this is the opinion of most chi3as or at least the ones I had the chance to know and meet.

Popular chi3i Islam might transgress the bounds of Islam but this is true also in the sunni world. What really matters is what the sources say. And when looking at the sources I do not see a difference between chi3i and sunni other then a different point of view of the political system to choose.The chi3i system favors the Imams and any members of the household of the prophet SAAWS while the sunni system [or its corrupt version] favors secular leaders and kings.

You might argue that even in the sunni system it favors the religious leaders [which is true] however historically sunni countries have all the time been ruled by secular leaders establishing dictatorships. In the chi3i system, there is some kind of a democratic pyramid of leadership. For example Sistani in Iraq does not impose his power on Iraqis, he enjoys his power thanks to the will of his people. The same thing with Khomenie, he went all the way up to power not because of arms but because of the will of the people. The same for Hizboallah movement, its main power is not its arms but its organization around a respected and loved leadership. this concept of a higher religious authority is a very deep concept in the chi3as mentality and thats what explains the large pictures of some leaders. The only difference is that those pictures are not imposed but chosen... [I do believe that putting a picture of a humain beeing in a mosque is outrageous and unislamic without doubt].

Ps: Sorry for the late reply.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2005 02:44 by mdlazreg.

Assalamo 3alikom,

Salaam mdlazreg,

Thanks you for your reply, indeed I agree with a lot of what you have said especially the fact that the split is "due to" and "fuelled by" political reasons.

>>>"the sunni system [or its corrupt version] favours secular leaders and kings."

I would just like to mention that (secular leaders and kings) are not really favoured by sunnis, I have never came accross sunnis scholars who approved secularism or kings (aside from the ones bought by theses kings or secularists) in fact most of the sunnis population is being repressed by the seculars and the kings.

Shi3a people are as well suffering from secularists, it's just that the phenomena is less obvious due to the fact that there aren't many shi3a countries (EX: Alaoui of Iraq).

In fact I do not think that someone who supports secularism or dictatorship is muslim, Muslim contries should be governed by Allah ta3alas Law (Quoran and Sunna) and not by secularists.

Salam

Assalaamu Alaykum.
I ran into all this educational stuff a little too late.
Yet it is never too late to say: thank you for taking the time and putting the effort in these postings.
Jaazaakumu Allahu Kheyran.

I want again to thank everybody that have participated in this debate.
I feel very happy that some muslims have had a very Islamic exchange of information. This has been very educational/reminder for me.
Alhamdu Lillah that, we can not only speak of Islamic standards, I witnessed you all behave according to Islamic rule of conversation. I am happy to witness this.
May Allah provide us with wisdom, love, compassion, and forgiveness.

is this thread still alive?

assoc
Date: le 16 janvier 2008 à 20h45
Je reviens vers vous...solidaires,
Dans le cadre de l'Initiative Nationale pour le Développement Humain (INDH), l'Association Initiatives France-Maroc SITE lance un programme ambitieux pour la plantation de 50.000 caroubiers dans la circonscription d'AGOURAÏ pour soutenir le développement durual.
Le caroubier
Le caroubier est présent dans les espaces verts et naturels (forets, massifs montagneux). On peut lui donner plusieurs noms comme Arbre de Judée, Chicot ou Tamarinier mais le nom scientifique reste Ceratonia Siliqua.

Originaire de la zone méditerranéenne et de l’Asie mineure, le caroubier est une espèce avant tout thermophile dont le tronc est gros et tordu.

Son fruit, la caroube a la forme d’une grosse gousse dont la longueur se situe entre 10 et 30 cm de couleur brune à maturité. Elle renferme de nombreuses petites graines dont le poids et la taille sont uniformes. Ses graines ont servi à établir une unité de mesure bien connue des bijoutiers : « Le carat ».
La souscription est bien sûr à titre solidararité pour seulement 20 € pour 10 plants ! Alors faites un geste et mettez vous au vert. Le projet sera confié à une coopérative de villageois qui prendront en charge la plantation et l'entretien en vue d'une génération future d'un petit revenu annuel (de quoi payer un Aïd et scolariser 2 enfants. C'est pas mal ! Qu'en pensez-vous comme projet de développement durable ?

You are talking about two different things.
The way the Middle Eastern celebrate it and the way we celebrate it. There is no harm in the way we are doing things, children have some toys at least, girls drums (baba 3aishoor bi she3oro kaye door…) the elderly nibbles on dates amonds…etc
Most Moroccans are not relating it to religion and are just having fun.

Relax if the prophet (SLAWS) was alive he would approve of our 3aishoora

\\\\/////
Adidas and baba 3aishoor

Islamic month Muharram-UL-Haram is known as month of sacrifice in which many historical events of Islam occurred through which we can get lesson of sacrifice, mutual tolerance and patience. Great sacrifices on the name of Islam from Madina to Karbala are associated with this month due to which it is known as most holy Islamic month. We should learn many lessons about this. 10 muharram history