Morocco # English board

I just hate it. When i visit morocco especcialy in the west, everybody is speaking french. If you ask the people to speak with you in arabic they look at you like your crazy. Whats with that! We are moroccon people but our language is going to dissappear if everybody speakes french. I feel like i am in an other country when i am in casablanca.

really? it depends on the district you are in.

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sara5jaar
I just hate it. When i visit morocco especcialy in the west, everybody is speaking french. If you ask the people to speak with you in arabic they look at you like your crazy. Whats with that! We are moroccon people but our language is going to dissappear if everybody speakes french. I feel like i am in an other country when i am in casablanca.

Hi Miss,
you are criticizing moroccan people just because they speak french... if you are really "morrocan patriot", why don't you speak moroccan darrija in this forum?
Start to criticize yourself before you criticize other people...
Wa ssalamou alaykom!

everybody is free to express himself with the language he chooses to , it s a personnal choice !!!!!

i totaly agree that everyone is free to express himself using the language he wants
french ,darija, tamazight , ..english ..it doesn t realy matter
the most important thing is to communicate

I think moroccan people speak frensh but not all the time means when you'll ask amoroccan not to talk frensh he will do, above all this it dosen't matter to speak japenese or even just create some hand-signs the most important is to get the message, anyway about frensh it's just an etiquette but our dialect will never Die

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Amazigh Arsliy

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sara5jaar
I just hate it. When i visit morocco especcialy in the west, everybody is speaking french. If you ask the people to speak with you in arabic they look at you like your crazy. Whats with that! We are moroccon people but our language is going to dissappear if everybody speakes french. I feel like i am in an other country when i am in casablanca.

Hi Miss,
you are criticizing moroccan people just because they speak french... if you are really "morrocan patriot", why don't you speak moroccan darrija in this forum?
Start to criticize yourself before you criticize other people...
Wa ssalamou alaykom!

I don't speak darrija in this forum because its an english one.
And if i see something i don't like i will criticize it. Why not? We are free people. And sure everybody is allowed to speak in whatever language they want. Everybody must do whatever they please but i am afraid that the arabic language is dissapearing. I have grown up in holland and i am very happy that i still speak arabic. I don't speak any french. So for me to speak in darijja en get answers in french its very irritating.

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sara5jaar
I just hate it. When i visit morocco especcialy in the west, everybody is speaking french. If you ask the people to speak with you in arabic they look at you like your crazy. Whats with that! We are moroccon people but our language is going to dissappear if everybody speakes french. I feel like i am in an other country when i am in casablanca.

I don't know what kind of people do you meet to say that "EVRYBODY" in morocoo is speaking english, but i'm sure we aren't meeting the same people
When i take a walk in Casablanca, i find a lot of people speaking arabic, darija, chel7a,.. and of course some of them french and even spanish, and thanks god for this diversity because this is Morocco and that's why we like it ! (tm)

Actually i get your point, but using the word "EVERYBODY" is too exaggerated for me, unless if you have friends only from Lyautey High School, Jabr,... and other french "Lycée", but this is another issue !

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sara5jaar
I just hate it. When i visit morocco especcialy in the west, everybody is speaking french. If you ask the people to speak with you in arabic they look at you like your crazy. Whats with that! We are moroccon people but our language is going to dissappear if everybody speakes french. I feel like i am in an other country when i am in casablanca.

wel i would like to speak arabic with you but this an english board (tm)

but as others said before they'r free to speak the languge they like

so open up ur minde

souado you are a strange woman, how come in the post (return to bled aftr 20 years) you interferring in someone s life and want to force him to stay in Morocco against his will and here you are saying (they are free) can you see the contradiction my dear , are you sure your fingers when they type they get the signal from your brain , i doubt it very much

Assalaam 'alaikum,

I agree with sara5jaar. It's not normal that we, Moroccans, use other language than Arabic. It's a sign of weakness. And u should not put it in the positive side saying it's a sign of diversity ! that is wrong. I do like languages and I plan to learn 3 other than arabic, french and english but I must not forget who I am : a Muslim and Arabic is the language of Quran (the book of Allah)... Let's ask someone from France to speak Arabic, or let's invite a Spanish to do so, you will be disappointed. The European union has respected the language of each one of the members..

But in our country, this problem is due to the official position of many personalities in the Administration (ministers, ...) and the the society (media, managers, ...) who speak French and ignore Arabic as if they think that the foreign language is more linked with development and Arabic is just for literature and history !!! and it's completely wrong...

The main language we used when I was in high school (public school !) is French. But ONLY French in the business schools I attended after.... While Arabic is the official language in the constitution !!

All that is a real fact and cannot be denied by anyone..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 11:27 by utopia7.

arabic is studied everywhere , even at universities but no arab country speaks the classical language in everyday life what we have are dialects which is a mix bag of local and foreign languages, why nowadays english is more popular ??? the answer is simple , all the technology , the science , the IT, ......are in english , what we arab invented in last 300 years ???: nothing , zerooooooo
the question that was asked but the author of this subject? is why we dont speak it in everyday life?
the answer to that: arabic is not a business language , in morocco we speak darija , french , amazigh etc and everybody is free , what are these mentalies which creeping in trying to force people to do things with no respect of personal choices , we dont respect civil liberties , i have an idea why don t we have some sort of police in the street to arrest people who speak french ??? and execute them or we throw stones on them a little respect to people s choices doesn t harm anybody on the contrary it shows an open mind and moderation in viewing other human beings



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2007 07:01 by wardamaroc30.

Assalaam 'alaikum,

Did anyone call previously to punish those persons speaking french, I don't see that anywhere !!

And I do agree with you that English is thriving because of the all the technologies and sciences coming from US or UK... But some Nations like Japan or Spain have done a great work to rehabilitate their own language by translating sciences from other language to their own language because no Nation can prosper without taking in consideration its own culture and values, and language is a full part of the culture. So even if Arabic was not the language of sciences and innovation during these "300" years, it should not be an excuse to ignore it and choose a foreign language !

It's not just a "personal choice" because if you make use of this justification you will also pretend that people have to behave as they like to do following their whims and desires with no consideration to their religion, identity.. And to go forward, it's not just people in the street who are speaking french or this odd mixture of french/darija, look carefully at the ministers and high officials who give speech in french while they pretend that Morocco got independence in 1956 ! Do you know that the text of the law is written first in French and translated after to Arabic ! ...

Excuse me I have offended you in anyway, this is not my intention but I'm just giving my contribution to clarify the matter.

Hope u understand me..

This is going to hurt some sensitivities, but it can be argued that arabic is as much foreign as french is. Arabic is not a native language but the result of an invasion just as french is the result of a colonization.
So which one has more legitimacy ?
It is true that I've noticed that some insert french words in a sentence as a form of vanity, it makes feel educated and I agree that it is annoying, but I find it more laughable.
We are a country which culture was formed by stratum, our darija is the best testimony to that, it is constantly evolving, contrary to written arabic which remains static.
I think one must look at it from a sociological or historical point of view to get a better picture.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 03:43 by chelhman.

Yes that will annoy those who prefer to belong more to France and also that will annoy those people manipulated by France to proclaim being the true dwellers of the land of Morocco !

I have to say that when we say that Arabic is our language, that does not mean because of our Arabic origins but because it is the language Allah has chosen for Islam and our unity should be based on our belief as Muslims. So, we have really to correct all those unjustified and false statements which consider Arabs as invaders !!

I am originally from Tiznit and I have a lot of friends from berber origins but I just consider this position toward Arabs as sick and non-Islamic at all !!

With due respect, brother.

Utopia7,

I'm referring to historical facts, Arabs weren't Jehovah witnesses, they weren't knocking at doors saying "would you consider converting to Islam ? Here's a few books, we'll come back in a few days"
They invaded, pillaged, sacked cities in order to advance the faith, these are documented facts. When the dust settled, THEN came the sciences, medicine, astronomy, agricultural techniques...etc
Let's not fall for a revisionist romantic view of what happened.
And once again, stating facts is not an attack on Islam, don't be overly defensive, it's unnecessary in this case.
Funny how everything comes back to religion in any debate these days, we were talking about language not faith.

P.S : also from Tiznit

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chelhman
Funny how everything comes back to religion in any debate these days, we were talking about language not faith.

I am Muslim and I believe that I have to consider things from the Islamic view. What's wro,g with that ??

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chelhman
They invaded, pillaged, sacked cities in order to advance the faith

That's what the europeans taught you, It's not true, recheck your history courses from fair sources.

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chelhman
Let's not fall for a revisionist romantic view of what happened.

Oh yes, I am romantic but still realistic with no grudge making me losing my reason.


It's really strange for me to know that some moroccans are thinking like you do !!!

May Allah guide us to the righteous path. ameen



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:00 by utopia7.

Utopia7, I've had this debate countless times, kinda tired of having it. knowledge of facts isn't haram and it does not diminish your faith. I wasn't "taught" anything, I've read, researched, unhindered by pre-conceptions, did what anybody when curious about something would do.
As for the righteous path, it's besides the point, I'm talking about facts not faith.

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chelhman
I've had this debate countless times, kinda tired of having it.

It shows that a lot of people disagree with your view of these facts.. Hope, one day, you will correct your misunderstandings for you.

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chelhman
knowledge of facts isn't haram and it does not diminish your faith.

Yes, but should be real facts not Lies.. and please give me sources so that I can seek knowledge by myslef cause I don't find what you said anywhere.

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chelhman
I'm talking about facts not faith.

But believing in such ~fake facts~ can hurt your faith, trust me !


I apologize, brother. No offense intended but I must clear things so people would not get deceived with such pretensions.

I don't like arguing so I may not continue this debate.

Thanks at all



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 07:02 by utopia7.

Utopia7, you sound self-righteous to me. As for the sources, there are so many, but I get the feeling it wouldn't help. It's like you said "I am Muslim and I believe that I have to consider things from the Islamic view", so you set the criteria before you begin your research.
Knowledge isn't muslim, christian or jewish, it's universal. A fact is fact, muslim conquests weren't peaceful, read Al Bukhari for instance, the violence is well documented, it may be sugarcoated with selfrighteousness but it happened.
Christians had their crusades, muslims their conquests, these people weren't giving out candy to convert "pagans".
By definition, it was an invasion of Morocco, Arabs imposed a language and a religion. Saying that isn't attacking the faith, it's a historical fact.
If you speak to an Iranian, he would tell you the same thing, Persia was invaded, that doesn't mean he's attacking Islam, he's likely to be more fervent in his faith than an Arab.

Islam encourages knowledge but when Darwin says that our ancestors were monkeys, then should I put my beliefs beside to know if darwin's theory is right or not ?!!

As for Arab's conquest,you should say Muslims conquest and it is a benediction because they brought ISLAM to this land, otherwise, people in Morocco would still be worshipping fake deities. But just to make a last point, when you say Muslims had pillaged, sacked cities while, you are then negelcting that Islam forbids such acts even in the case of war and Muslims had led fair wars along the history.. some exceptions may be but that was not the rule..

Anyway, what you said need elaboration but as I said above I won't continue this debate. I think also we're off topic.

Finally, please do give me the sources you talked about, I am interested. I like to gain knowledge in all fields and I still have my mind to distinguish what is true from what is not so...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2007 08:08 by utopia7.

Utopia7, like you said we're off topic. As for the sources, do what I did, start by googling and go from there. You're asking me to give sources for common knowledge, of course every religious conquests was done through invasions, wars, Christians did it, Muslims did it, what's so shocking about that ?
Unless we judge it by today's standards, which wouldn't make sense academically speaking.

As for the rest, we'll agree to disagree, I happen to think that Darwin's theory is certainly more credible than the creationist one, at least it is supported by facts and confirmed at every paleo-discovery, the creationist one basically says : "abracadabra here's Adam, abracadabra here's Eve". Let's be serious.

just a little information: i dont see our politicians speaking in french only , in parliament they debate things in arabic , in the news of course if they speak to a journalist who asks the question in french they need to answer in french , a politician needs t have languages skills at least that saves money for a translator when they travel abroad
the fact that moroccan speaks french specially in businesses, and between friends doesn t mean the arabic will be extinct , it is the first language thought in morocco, primary , school , colleges , universities ............i read someone wrote ( we have to correct that!!!1) i wonder how , and what s need correcting , if two moroccans friends for exemple talking between each other in french or in chinese or in tamazight whats that got to do with anyone , in morocco people speak french to people who understand it , if not they speak most of the time in darija, i have never seen anyone speaking the arabic classical when they visit a shop, or use the phone, just in films or in classrooms , and in the media .....
ther are a group of people who are against any foreign language and they wish to stay in their little cacoons, rejecting anything to do with other nations and civilisations ,
ther are people and this is a fact who refuse to use a car because it is invented by what they call infidels, they hate tourists, they consider anybody who speaks a foreign language an infidel who deserve to be stoned to death , people with dark mentalities who have some phobias and severe allergies from anything non arabic
we have a strong civilisation, a strong religion , and a strong language, speaking other languages or benefiting from the development of others doesn t mean we neglecting our origins on the contrary that adds to our knowledge , for exemple , how many japanese speaks btw each other in english , most of them , their tv channels are in english why they don t waste their time and energy worried about their religion boudisme or the japonese language ?????we have to wake up and look around us .
i see here again the argument btw amazigh, and arab we all moroccans , that s a very pathetique and unnecessarly debate and this is not how we will build our country .

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chelhman
As for the sources, do what I did, start by googling and go from there.

So I was not mistaken when I doubt about the sources of such statements you gave, all what google gives is not reliable all the time !

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chelhman
You're asking me to give sources for common knowledge, of course every religious conquests was done through invasions, wars, Christians did it, Muslims did it, what's so shocking about that ?

Answer : what is shocking is in fact when you add that Muslims has [pillaged, sacked cities in order to advance the faith], and you claim that it is said in al-Bukhari ! Please do verify your ideas and the authenticity of od the statements before sharing it with others !

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chelhman
As for the rest, we'll agree to disagree, I happen to think that Darwin's theory is certainly more credible than the creationist one, at least it is supported by facts and confirmed at every paleo-discovery, the creationist one basically says : "abracadabra here's Adam, abracadabra here's Eve". Let's be serious.

Here I have only one question but please don't mind me asking : Are you Muslim ?? a Muslim believes that Allah had created Adam as a man and please do edit in your mind this "abracadabra ..." because it big error of you to say that.

To let you know, many scientists who have adopted this fake theory have finally admitted it has a lot of contradictions... Guard you faith !

check : [www.darwinismrefuted.com]


My advice : start thinking as a Muslim and not as Chelh, that would save you from making false perception.

Now when you confirm that we are off topic, so let's close this conversation about this matter !

Peace.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 12:15 by utopia7.

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utopia7
My advice : start thinking as a Muslim and not as Chelh, that would save you from making false perception.

I would gladly drop this, but I can't leave these false accusations unanswered, what does being chelh has to do with anything ? When did I put that forward in our discussion ?
The rest of your answer merits a separate post, it would be an interesting debate.

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wardamaroc30
just a little information: i dont see our politicians speaking in french only , in parliament they debate things in arabic , in the news of course if they speak to a journalist who asks the question in french they need to answer in french , a politician needs t have languages skills at least that saves money for a translator when they travel abroad

Innocent of you to give such opinion, but the fact is that the ministers and high officials are using french more than Arabic, not with foreign persons like journalists but in front of moroccans !
Anyway, I invite you to notice that on tv, look at 2m !!!

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wardamaroc30
ther are a group of people who are against any foreign language and they wish to stay in their little cacoons, rejecting anything to do with other nations and civilisations ,
ther are people and this is a fact who refuse to use a car because it is invented by what they call infidels, they hate tourists, they consider anybody who speaks a foreign language an infidel who deserve to be stoned to death , people with dark mentalities who have some phobias and severe allergies from anything non arabic

I don't know about them, maybe they exist only in your imagination ! Please don't jump on extreme, you frightened me !

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wardamaroc30
we have a strong civilisation, a strong religion, and a strong language, speaking other languages or benefiting from the development of others doesn't mean we neglecting our origins on the contrary that adds to our knowledge

When we have a strong civilisation, religion, language then we have to not replace them with another things.

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wardamaroc30
we have to wake up and look around us.

look around you : Spain where you will find people not talking but with Spanish; France where they protest against any politician each time he uses to speak with english or other language than French !!


Finally, I myself find some difficulties to get rid of the french words from my speech when I talk to my friends or colleagues but I keep up and try to clean my tongue from these bad manners. At least, trying to use only Arabic words when spaking Arabic and only French word when speaking French (meetings, conferences, ...)

Hope I have added a value to this discussion, otherwise I appologize..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 09:46 by utopia7.

the topic is about darija in everyday life ????



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2007 03:45 by wardamaroc30.

well i am with the freedom to people to speak and learn any language they like and as warda mentioned
it is good for our culture which is very divert and multi coloured like a beautiful atlas carpet
i dont understand why the discussion had to be diverted to religion , racismand people s beleives
that s a bit over the top.

Sorry to jump in after all has been said and almost done...
I beleive we are speaking about the choice of speaking a language : in the case French!

It is not as simple as everybody is free to use whatever language they want...Very simply put:

1- Once you speak a language, you are, whether you are aware of it or not, giving legitimacy to that
Language!
2- You then fall under the rules that language dictates and you are extending its use to your territory!
3- You are indirectly, relegating your "official and or National language as well as other dialects, to
a secondary level

As to the Arabic or for that reason French...The presence of these and other Languages is not a natural act! They have been IMPOSED, it is a fact and an historical fact. Now, it doesn't sit well when one hears that The Arabs Imposed Islam through Language, and they had no intention on Favoring the Language over the Faith!
It was Territorial, religious, and linguistic in this order! Now the debate is not about Religion and it's useless to question faiths here, because that hurts the debate and judgement...

...Arabic is not spoken per say, it has been deviated and the other invasions brought their Languages...THe British and the Dutch in the Southern parts of Africa....But the French have Started invading with the Idea to CIVILISE the uncivilised, and the Tool was LAnguage...I think to some extent they succeeded...because they taught the language and they ruled and still rule through that! Immigration is beleive it or not re-linked to Language again! so no matter how great one's French might be, to the NAtive it is never good enough, indirectly, one is not good enough to be on equal footing...

It is really more serious than just limiting it ( language) to one area ( religion)!

Evolution and Creation can be applied to Language as well. Language is created then it evolves through the new users bringing their own features, local ones, to fill in the need for whatever reason...

my two cents

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Yani
Sorry to jump in after all has been said and almost done...
I beleive we are speaking about the choice of speaking a language : in the case French!

It is not as simple as everybody is free to use whatever language they want...Very simply put:

1- Once you speak a language, you are, whether you are aware of it or not, giving legitimacy to that
Language!
2- You then fall under the rules that language dictates and you are extending its use to your territory!
3- You are indirectly, relegating your "official and or National language as well as other dialects, to
a secondary level
As to the Arabic or for that reason French...The presence of these and other Languages is not a natural act! They have been IMPOSED, it is a fact and an historical fact. Now, it doesn't sit well when one hears that The Arabs Imposed Islam through Language, and they had no intention on Favoring the Language over the Faith!
It was Territorial, religious, and linguistic in this order! Now the debate is not about Religion and it's useless to question faiths here, because that hurts the debate and judgement...

...Arabic is not spoken per say, it has been deviated and the other invasions brought their Languages...THe British and the Dutch in the Southern parts of Africa....But the French have Started invading with the Idea to CIVILISE the uncivilised, and the Tool was LAnguage...I think to some extent they succeeded...because they taught the language and they ruled and still rule through that! Immigration is beleive it or not re-linked to Language again! so no matter how great one's French might be, to the NAtive it is never good enough, indirectly, one is not good enough to be on equal footing...

It is really more serious than just limiting it ( language) to one area ( religion)!

Evolution and Creation can be applied to Language as well. Language is created then it evolves through the new users bringing their own features, local ones, to fill in the need for whatever reason...

my two cents

I am sorry that i havent been around to react on everybody. Some things that have been said by UTOPIA7 and chelhman have been words from my heart. Also the words from yani are exactly my opinion. If someone have misunderstand me, its not about the fact that i don't speak French. It is about the fact that i don't understand that people choose to speak and behave like a country who colonised us. If that means that i am narrow minded than i am.