Morocco # English board

President Sarkozy
May 7, 2007; Page A14
Voters yesterday handed Nicolas Sarkozy a mandate to revive France. The next President of France is 52 years old and of Hungarian and Greek-Jewish descent. He can make history -- and carve out a new role for France in the world -- by moving fast to meet his countrymen's expectations of a new direction.

The window of opportunity for any new leader to bring change never stays open long. Even before yesterday's runoff, trade unions and the Socialists threatened street violence and strikes at any hint of serious reform. The biggest risk for Mr. Sarkozy and France would be to hesitate. Fortunately patience and a reluctance to ruffle feathers aren't his vices.

During the campaign, Mr. Sarkozy introduced to France the discourse of the possible. Many European countries -- Denmark, Sweden, Ireland, the U.K. -- have "full employment," he has noted. Why can't France? The French used to work hard, he says often, but the 35-hour workweek made them lazy and sent the best and brightest looking for a better life in New York or London.

The new President's biggest challenge will be to focus his campaign motto -- to "rehabilitate work, authority, respect, meritocracy" -- into a governing agenda. To that end, his plans to loosen labor regulations, cut the size of the state and the tax burden, and overhaul pensions would seem the more pressing task than his call for a new push on the Kyoto treaty. By proving that free-market policies yield results, Mr. Sarkozy can reconcile the French to the idea that growth isn't an "Anglo-Saxon" plot to destroy their comfy lives.

Europe and the U.S. have a lot riding on the new President's success. Without putting France's domestic house in better order, Mr. Sarkozy can't claim a strong leadership role in Europe and create better relations with Washington. Mr. Sarkozy, a vocal anti-anti-American, brings the promise of closer trans-Atlantic links. Speaking to Americans in his victory speech last night, he declared, "You can count on our friendship." It was an unusual statement for a French victor.

France's new President isn't always ideologically consistent. Though friendly to business, he proudly calls himself "a protectionist" on trade and industrial policy. During the campaign, he turned hedge funds, Turkey and immigrants into useful bogeymen. Perhaps, as his aides suggest, this is what it takes to win in France.

Even so, the French voters, in their wisdom, couldn't have come up with a more different man to replace President Jacques Chirac. Mr. Sarkozy brings energy, youth and daring to the Élysée. Better buckle up for the ride.

what do you think of this article Krim?

Sarkozy have some good things, and some bad things with him...

this dude doesnt care about the poors...
he is a corrupt pro-USA douche bag... a puppet somehow...
so, he is pro-Israel...
with him at the power, we wont see any Turkish with a Shengen passport...
he is against taxes to help the poors...
he is too violent and uses the securitarian movement to gain support of the most racist, dumb, nationalistic, egoist, missinformed, islamophobic, zionnist and corrupt scum in France....

but...
i agree with him on some point... how he promotes hard work (the 35 hours law is dumb and retarded) Etc...

but i dont agree with him on some other points... the french work more than the other people... he is just a douche bag...

but he is the president now, so we have to respect him... i hope he will give them good results...
anyway, it's not my country... i dont care!

Wait and see

Dear Krim ,

this time it seems that French people got really sick of ignorant and uncivilized immigrants who mostly live in the country and get advantages of all social rights but they want to enforce their own rules of the middle age.....time to react!!!….

Sarkozy seems indeed to be the only one who ca save France from what seemed to be a slow but certain decline. His ideas concerning the revival of the French economy are good and have already yielded results in other developed countries of the world. However, as a human being, I personally find him a bit scary, kind of a potential dictator. He can be very arrogant, can use vulgar language (remember la racaille), and does not hesitate to intimidate those who stand on his way. He also looks power hungry which is not a good sign in a country that wants to stand as THE democracy.

So as someone said in a previous comment: wait & see.

@ Ilhem,

Wasn't your comment a bit rough? Not that I condone using social security but it seems to be that the decadent ghetto situation where most immigrants find themselves today is the result of a poor French strategy that was meant to keep Blacks and Arabs together, far from the "white nobility". Forcing immigrants into a so-called "integration" where you are supposed to forget who you are in order to be accepted, has also had extremely negative and counter-productive results. When immigrants are respected and difference is tolerated, like in Canada and the US, immigrants spontaneously do their best to adjust and work hard to make a living, as long as the economic system is proper. One more thing, using social security is not a specialty of immigrants, it is a common way of living of "assisted" native French people.

Regards

Hi all,


Shireen,


I’ve lived in many European and no European countries include France …I’ve studied , worked and meet people from different nationalities , origins and religions …every where I’ve been it was always the same problem with Muslims…nearly all other nationalities (somehow) were integrated or at least found their place in the society except our “sisters and brothers!?….. Buddhist, Hindus, Jews….ect even they don’t believe on the religion and they don’t adapt the lifestyle of the country they’re living in they still respect it and its people practicing their own religions and traditions except our people ?!….can you tell me why?….it’s easy to blame others for our failure ….it’s easy to say it’s “their” fault that we are today at the edge of society but what do “we” do to change that?!….what is our contribution for living together with all our differences ?!…I haven’t found any positive answer for my question from our compatriots….. I’ve seen families of 6 to 8 persons no one got a job …..living from taxes that “Christians” are paying each month from their hard work and when they open their mouth first thing they say that those people are “Kofar”….evils…. we have to fight them…ect….what should they think about us?….how could they trust us?….you talked about respect and tolerance?!!….do our people understand that?….I don’t think so….when you allow other people to live in your community and give them the same rights as your people (by the way rights that they didn’t get in their own countries) you expect from them to respect you …your life style and at least to thank you for your help don’t you?….our people want to live in others countries…get all their advantages and rights and enforce their own believes ….that’s not logical ….no one will accept that….in the same way our people would never accept to change themselves for others…..integration is not forgetting who you are as many of us think….it’s respecting….accepting other’s differences and adapting yourself to the majority because that’s democracy ….and I’m saying here “adapting ” not following others principals….. I believe everyone who is honest hard worker has got a chance in the western countries no matter where he/she comes from……but as long as our people think others are bad and we are good and better things will get worse and the distance between “us” and “they” will get bigger….that’s not gonna improve our position at all……….



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2007 02:18 by Ilhem2.

Sarkozy, like any other Frenchie president are all the same, they are pro-americans, pro-israelis, they support the international war on Moslems ( Alqaeda's just an imaginary ennemy who is intended to play the hidden bad guy to keep the war waged on any muslim country that is not following orders), wht are we expecting from any frenchie frog-eater ? they'd never show us the right path anyhow, France who asks Turkey to acknowledge the human genocide in Armenia is supposed to acknowledge the awful genocide she committed in Algeria, france was the first to help Israel to build her nuclear power, france was the first to exploit north African ressources and manpower, frenchies built their country by the blood of those who fought for its freedom and denied'em afterwards, france's the cause of the conflicts between Morocco and Algeria, France's "puppets" are the ones who rule now in all three Maghreb countries and suck their peoples dry, france was the first to make muslim girls put their veils off their heads in public schools ( did you say democratic ?) what for? i don't think wearing a scarf is a problem, does it hide any intellectual or mental abilities? what integrity? we give up our religion and beliefs to please'em , or for the sake of their passport? those who are born their as a third generation have all the right to live and keep their beliefs, their parents busted their rears off to build france and gave their outmost and precious thing (their lives) to free france from Ole Hitler's army, they're just enjoying the fruits of their sacrifices like any other frenchie who on the contrary robbed their ressources and killed a 6 digit number innocent people in all three Maghreb countries, DON'T THROW STONES AT PEOPLE WHEN YOUR HOUSE'S GLASS-MADE !!! we will never forget !

Ilhem2? are you crazy?
you are so confused that it pisses me off...

we are Muslims, we have our own economic system, our own laws, our own life style, this life style isnt respected, even by the puppet governments the Westerners left in our countries...

we have morons in our countries talking about democracy and laicity... these are foreign values... they are good, dont get me wrong. but they arent good enough for us. we dont need democracy or laicity... we dont need the geneva convention, we got better than that...

we have to cut relation with them, because they think we are savages... we have to use our own system, and give it the time to be modern aswell... we have an old system, we left it centuries, behind, we have centuries to catch on. we have tons of work...

and we still spend time crying like old ladies...

wake up for god sake. Muslims are hard workers, it's in our religion. dont mistake these freaks who arent working with Muslims... you lost respect of your own community?
what is wrong with YOU! those arent your brothers, and if they are, they need your help...

stop siding with the enemy, they dont give a damn about you. you are just cheap labor for them. some of them are nice. but most, and the system is against you...

in our countries, people are working their whole lives to stay poor... they attack us to force democracy... they put our brothers against each others and sell weapons to both sides...
they slaughter our people in Iraq and Afghanistan, they call us terrorists when we defend ourselves...
they let their puppet governments torture our brothers to push them to commit horrors... and then blow us off in the name of some blind justice...

what the hell is wrong with you? dont you see that the system is destroying us? and who controls it?
our people are crazy... they claim that they export freedom and send us alcohol and drugs...

they dont give a damn about you! put this in your head...
if you have something to offer, you are welcome, if not, they forget you...

the French who are supposed to be our friends voted this right winger into power... he is proud of the colonial france... and yet, more than 50% voted for him.

France does really need reform and Sarkozy strikes me as the Little Napoleon tt crache...but he might be what the system needs to fix things! I don't like he's attitude going about presenting his ideas and trashing some minorities ( for example immigrants ...Muslims, arabs, sub-saharan africans...) It is in the interest of the North-africans and the sub-saharan-French and other residents of france that France go back to a stronger economical system! He's the President elect and "we" will have to ride this ship with him!

Ilham;

I see where you're coming from, there are people who are abusing the system and those will have to shape up ...but there are many an intellectual in france of arab or african origins who are successful...and do oppose Sarkozy's take on immigration but they are not just staying home and making babies, they are very active and contribute well to the economy. I Look at the latter group as the ones serious about changing things, because they present a combination of healthy dissent and honest work...The former group, the Lazy ones, is part of the bagage any country has, and honestly they were encouraged by the Past policies. Morocco has its share of nagging street-corner-hugging folks with big mouths but no will to pick up the slacks. the system again contributed somewhat to that situation but one can't just blame the system.

Let's come back to this thread after a year and see! Sarko has 5 years to walk the walk now, there will be some collateral damage but that's the nature of the beast/business, you win some and you loose some.

As for you Ilham ! i've got two words to tell you : if you live in France you know well that frenchies (not all of them of course) don't give a damn about you as long as you're an arab or moslem in general, those you called ignorants and sick and freeloaders are your brothers and as and arab proverb says : "anfouka minka walaw ajdha3!" (your nose's part of you even if torn apart ), it's noit their fault if they don't find a job and bum, their fathers came to france to work and they did a great job, they sweat blood to make france look like what it is now, they were ignorants but they had hearts and they contibuted in building France and more: they fought to save her from Nazis, and please remember that ! now that their children who felt like the fifth wheel & marginalized maybe because France's more inetrested in more smart brains they become choosy, they have all the right to Live as a part of their new country ! and sarkitler would regret the day he was born if he try any monkey business with'em because we're talking about a helluva 7 million arab immigrants and other subsaharans ! you not included of course , you're pro-sarko !

Ilhem2
I understand your anger about some of our people but one should be carefull not to generalize.I think your anger can only be explained by your love to them. I wish the immigrants were educated enough to value education and help their kids to achieve the jump. A few did and one can be proud of but the majority did do not and did not have the background to value education.If you do not have the knowledge to give it to your kids you have to find ways and invest money fo tutoring etc.....and it is the best investemet you can do.Most of them prefer to buil houses back home .........The french governement should have also invest in saving these immigrant´s kids from ignorance which is easy transmissible.
At the end and in this wild world, one should learn to rely on himself not on a governement or on any others.

LeMask
You have to think about changing your wavelength. I do not want to repeat myself.

Hi everyone,


LeMask ,

very low level of discussion you are delivering…..no comment because it doesn’t make any sense……
once you learn to respect the discussant and will be able to choose respectable words to express your ideas we can talk……



yani,
I agree with you that there are many migrants once could be proud of but this is a minority ……exemptions…… and exemptions you will always find that's not the problem…..here I’m talking about the majority and unfortunately the majority of our migrants are not doing well at all…however the sad thing is that they are unable to see their part in this problem blaming the “others”…the low ….the system for their failure…or what ever the reason (racism, fear of Islam …ect)….all this excuses make things more difficult and the situation between the two communities worse than ever…..consequently the “host countries” are closing their door…voting guys like Sarkozy with hard political measures…this leads of course that Europe is losing in its economy but our countries and people are losing much more because we are the poor and the undeveloped one….we need Europe in all levels and areas of development …. add to that the hard competition from Asia where Europe could get any kind of qualified migrants for very convenient conditions……yes I’m very interested in the politic of Sarkosy….in fact I’m interested in any leader who is willing to change things …particularly his attention to introduce the selective primary immigration …..I think it’s very fair….



Shelby,
I don’t live in France…..you‘ve mentioned migrant’s contribution in building France and free the country from the Nazis?!!!….don’t you think you are exaggerating a bit? …however they were not the only ones ….France required an immigrant workforce to assist the economy from many countries such as Spain and Italy in the 20es….. Poland in the 30es ….. Portugal…even Belgium….Indochina: Vietnam…Cambodia……ect …many African countries…all those people have contributed more or less in building France….this doesn’t excuse our immigrant's failure to integrate in the European society…..more over as I’ve said before this is a problem in many countries like Holland, Germany, Italy, Spain…ect …
the 7 millions Arabs you are insinuating as a “hreat” represent only about 4% of the whole society….I don't think that 4% could get any considerable influence or power...
if you are thinking that Sarkosy is going to regret the day he was born you are mistaking coz he is only doing what the France people want…..simple as that …..



Krim.
I’m not generalizing of couse… basically when I discuss an issue I talk generally about the majority considering always there is a majority excluded….for the rest of your statement I agree with you……


finaly immigration had gone from being an essentially economic phenomenon to a social problem of the highest order at the heart of political, cultural and religious debates in Europe…our people need to think seriously about it and to find adequate solutions satisfying the both parts….

good night

Ilham : Most the nationalities you mentioned have or share the same beliefs and stuff, Arabs are different as long as they believe Jesus is not a god or son of God but a prophet like any other prophet, and religion is what this world all about, they cannot melt in a country where lot of things make the differences, we are not Viets, chinese, Africans, Spaniards ...they'd give up their principles easily if they think it's for "the good of their lives", moslem immigrants sure don't show the real imùage of a real moslem but many aren't ready to surrender unless they feel traeted like any other french civilian, France has always a special policy towards arabs and moslems, persecution, humiliation, mockery, ..and the benefits they "get" are like a poisonous gift, in arabic we say : siyasat al 3asa wal jazarah" (the stick and the carrot policy)

Quote
shelby
Ilham : Most the nationalities you mentioned have or share the same beliefs and stuff, Arabs are different as long as they believe Jesus is not a god or son of God but a prophet like any other prophet, and religion is what this world all about, they cannot melt in a country where lot of things make the differences, we are not Viets, chinese, Africans, Spaniards ...they'd give up their principles easily if they think it's for "the good of their lives", moslem immigrants sure don't show the real imùage of a real moslem but many aren't ready to surrender unless they feel traeted like any other french civilian, France has always a special policy towards arabs and moslems, persecution, humiliation, mockery, ..and the benefits they "get" are like a poisonous gift, in arabic we say : siyasat al 3asa wal jazarah" (the stick and the carrot policy)

Shelby,
so what solution are you proposing?....what do you think could our migrants do to solve this problem in fair way?..coz thinking the others are bad and evils and we are the best and angels is really very littl and quite easy as an initiative....not gonna change any thing at all...

Ilhem2? you have to deserve respect...
and in what you said, i see that you lost respect for your own people.
you bought the right wing lies. you wont live correctly that way...

they made empires exploiting weaker than them. you have to understand that, or you will never understand this world...

Ilhem;

I applaude your taking the time to constructively respond to all of us. It seems like we all picked on one particular point in your initial response; The hard working people vs tthe opportunists/ lazy (my word),but you backed your point of view and I respect that.
Sheers,
Yani

Ilham : i'm sorry i've got no solution to solve this problem , maybe wegotta start by showing the bright side of our civilization, we've been marred for a couple of centuries, we sure are not good, we are drowning in our own problems for the simple reason we have lost our faith, which is the most impotant thing we ever had as moslems, anyways, all i want to tell you is you have no right to call'em what you called'em, what's left? savages? primitives? you gotta have some respect for yourself and for the others, and as lebanese say :"ma 7ada a7san min 7ada "!

@ Ilhem.

You did make your point indeed and I can understand it and even share many views with you. Just wanted to add that being from the countryside is a fact not an insult. Yes it might make one less sophistacted than urban people but in no way does it diminish his/her value as a human being. And if we keep our memory alert, France has willingly and intentionally "imported" people from the country to employ them as "ouvriers". Later it failed to manage its immigration policy and the result is the total disaster that you and I see everyday in Europe. Believe me I had a shock when I moved from Washington DC to Paris but I do believe that the responsibility is equally shared between the immigrants themselves and the French government. Otherwise how do you explain that the Arab/Muslim average annual income in the US is somewhere around 45000 USD/year (almost the same as that of the Jewish American household average yearly income) while here Blacks and Arabs make most of the poor and the unemployed?

Regards

Hi all,

Quote
shelby
Ilham : i'm sorry i've got no solution to solve this problem , maybe wegotta start by showing the bright side of our civilization, we've been marred for a couple of centuries, we sure are not good, we are drowning in our own problems for the simple reason we have lost our faith, which is the most impotant thing we ever had as moslems, anyways, all i want to tell you is you have no right to call'em what you called'em, what's left? savages? primitives? you gotta have some respect for yourself and for the others, and as lebanese say :"ma 7ada a7san min 7ada "!

shelby,
I don’t think you are in a position to tell me or anyone else how to respect myself or our people exactly because "ma 7ada a7san min 7ada " as you said ....you are not better than others in respecting our people I think.... for the bright side our civilization you are keeping talking about it was once....in the past…hundreds years ago….tray to see the miserable situation your country now….. may be we got to start showing the poverty…illiteracy ...the high unemployment...prostitution...the lack of the basic facilities....ouzid ouzid...living in the past is not gonna change anything at all...in fact it will leave us behind.....only self criticism hard work and firm solutions could move us forward and improve the situation of our people.....not the religion or our past bright civilization will give our hungry people to eat...good education or life with dignity....other thing tray don’t mix proud and respect....completely 2 different things.... if we talk honestly about the situation our people it doesn’t mean we don’t respect them.... this is the reality and bad reality unfortunately!!!...we need to see it clearly if we wanna improve it... emotions are unnecessarily in this matter.....


Shireen,
I agree with you...in fact that’s what I’m trying to say all time...the problem of the immigrants in “Europe “ (not only France by the way) is a responsibility of the two communities ..... the European and the immigrants....the fact is our people don’t wanna understand nor to admit it.....as for the USA...I only have one explanation I guess....beside the number of the Arab immigrants compare to the Afro Americans and the Jews the high average income of the Arabs is probably due to the high income of some successful people such as business people...doctors... engineers....ect...however in the USA even poverty and unemployment in the Arab community the Arabs still not have big problems to establish themselves in the society like in Europe...this is in my opinion the results of selective immigration.... same in Canada and Australia....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2007 12:53 by Ilhem2.

Denying the truth does not and will not help us in any way. As a Moroccan I find it tough to handle hard words against the North African community but I do not accept denial either. It is at best useless and at worst dangerous to consider that we have no responsibility in our situation today.History is good and makes us proud of who we are but it has no effect on our current underdevelopment both in our countries and in Europe. So we'd better roll up our sleeves and get working instead and drowing in our glorious culture.

Regards