MAROCK

Morocco # English board

16 September 2006 00:29

HI all

reading you guys make me think that i am a raciste, cause may be i dont trust jew, I have nothing against them as humain beeing they just keep there shit away from me.

I am very sure if the movie supposed to be the other way arround, morrocan guys enjoying jewish girl. i dont believe they will find many jewish girl lining up for the role.

I know the movie shows fact of what happning in Morocco we all know that, but we dont need to be reminded every time.

to be honeste with you i see the movie as publicite for prostitution, alcohol, drugs..is not what Morocco is all about..

yallah .. good news never sales.. to make money you need to mess up somebody reputation.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2006 12:42 by aziz_dk.

Aziz_dk

khadijaox81

16 September 2006 20:23

what shit are they expected to keep away from you, aziz? the movie is not an advertisement for prostitution (by the way what prostitution did you see in it? there's none!) as for alcohol, drugs etc... that's simply what youngsters use to have fun, and they're not necessarily jews. now if you don't want a movie to remind you of what's happening in morocco that's not a problem as you don't need to see a movie to see what's happening there: just get out there and hang around in any area of casa, marrakech or rabat, or any other city for that purpose and you'll see for yourself. and it's certainly no fiction. i agree that it's not what morocco is all about, as there's much more to it than just that, but again, the same thing can be said of just any country in this world. however, not recognising that it does exist is just plain denial. and last time i looked, it didn't help anyone nor did it do any good.to me the main merit of the movie is that it opens our eyes to things that we wouldn't otherwise talk about as they're considered to be taboo. those things are not for us to like or dislike but they're not for us to ignore, either. they make us more aware of our surroundings and of the fact that our country has many different facets, which is certainly what makes it so interesting in the first place.

LeMask

17 September 2006 20:42

khadijaox81, replace prostituation by anything opposed to religion (like having sex outside marriage)...

and Jews have a bad reputation because of Israel, it's often not deserved... there is plenty of jews who are opposed to what Israel is doing (but not against the idea of Israel and i fully agree with them, making a country for the jews is a good thing to do)...

but the problem isnt here...

aziz_dk, i personnaly knew two jewish girls in my life... so, i doubt what you said, jew girls are just like the muslim girls in the movies... same problems (same rules, same crimes)...

but this movie is boring, this is what i wanted to express... it's a normal story, something we see everyday, every night... it's so so so so comon that it's boring... really boring...

only these freaks we see in morrocan highschools who have a rich imagination when it comes to foreign highschools in Morroco could get any interest in the movie...

Almot

17 September 2006 22:55

khadijaox81,
You said it very well, and you expressed big part of the views of many on this,
Thnaks,

Almot

SLR

26 September 2006 10:03

hello,

i had heard so many things about this film before i saw it, that i was extremely surprised to see that it is lastly not more than entertainment as any other french other american movie, and a love story for teenagers. I really don´t understand why people made such a fuss about it. One must really have a poor intellectual background to feel miffed about it!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2006 10:04 by SLR.

chelhman

26 September 2006 18:56

"miffed" : I actually had to look it up.
Thanks SLR, I learned something today tongue sticking out smiley

sarah70

18 October 2006 03:51

salam alaykum

when i came across some idea like " arab invasion" ,"islamization of the country" you guys sound that u r disappointed about the fact that morocco is an arab and islamic country or u do prefer the version french/berber (by the way I am chelha.
when it comes to the movie ,it did not come up with something new it is talking about the moroccan elite (or the 5%) life which personally i don t care about (however i respect their choices) since it did not represent the majority concerns .i think the move is for 2 kind of people the 1 st party is the elite themselves and the second party is the curious ones .

LeMask

18 October 2006 14:01

sarah70 you are damn right!
the movie represents the 5% of the morrocan population, and i personnaly dont give a damn...

it's a "people movie" and i mean by people these poorly made news about the lives of the stars and such...

it's the same bussiness, it's like reality TV, it's really poor when it comes to meanings.
it's superficial (or too deep for me), it's very very hard to follow... or too easy... i dont know, it's confusing.

but why should i care about a muslim girl sleeping with a jew dude?
i dont give a damn. and by definition, muslim girls dont do that.

so... on the religious side, it's weird...

but i'm a bit worried about the country. looks like with the rise of the level of life, we start to care about the uneducated mass. they will follow anything new and fashion...

so the useless things like "first kiss" on TV and such useless things will be interesting.

fashion victims, that is all...

sarah70

18 October 2006 18:03

Assalam alaykum

If you want to express a viewpoint no need to raise your voice just make a good argument.
Le mask if you have an opinion just make a good argument no need to swear.

eFaysal

18 October 2006 19:25

THEMASK,

DAMN, IT'S NOT A TERM TO WRITE, IT'S ONLY FOR TALKING.

ARE YOU A NEW USER OF ENGLISH?

JUST BEGIN WITH SIMPLE ENGLISH AND STEP BY STEP YOU WILL REACH THE ACCEPTABLE LEVEL.

F.

zaki7

18 October 2006 21:43

Morocco is a mix of races. It is not solely an Arab country if we stand by the definition of a race. The majority in the country is Berber. True, the arabs came and mixed and brought Islam with them, that is a fact, but that doesn't make us Arabs. That makes us Moroccans, meaning citizens of a country that was influenced by several races from the past, the biggest one being the native Amazigh race. The same it is not a good idea to lump all Moroccans and say it is an Amazigh country, we should not say it is an arabic country because the reality is there for everybody to see.

As for MAROCK, I saw the movie, personally, the story is very light, the message behind talks about tolerance, it is aimed for teens. Not really my cup of tea, but that being said, it is my personal opinion and in no way should I ask for the movie to be censored. It talks about 1% of Moroccans, so? Since when a movie needs to represent a society? Is Star Wars related to the American society? Producers do not have to make "documentaries" but "Create" an artistic and narrative work in the form of a film. I don't understand why we take everything personnaly and compare what we live with what a movie or a book talks about. We need to let the producers produce and the audience judge, not the way around.

Quote
sarah70
salam alaykum

when i came across some idea like " arab invasion" ,"islamization of the country" you guys sound that u r disappointed about the fact that morocco is an arab and islamic country or u do prefer the version french/berber (by the way I am chelha.
when it comes to the movie ,it did not come up with something new it is talking about the moroccan elite (or the 5%) life which personally i don t care about (however i respect their choices) since it did not represent the majority concerns .i think the move is for 2 kind of people the 1 st party is the elite themselves and the second party is the curious ones .

xylophene

19 October 2006 05:16

Funny enough to read all these, no one has picked up the artistic value and the great achievment of a morrocan director, moroccan actors and all the make off.

I loved the story, this is a great movie,
Rhitta, so young but what an awesome performance

For the rest, jews, muslim, bla bla bla, who cares ??

LeMask

20 October 2006 12:19

Quote
sarah70
Assalam alaykum
Le mask if you have an opinion just make a good argument no need to swear.

i didnt swear, i just say that it was a boring movie... a boring story, there is no logic behind it.

it's treated as something superior to a movie, a daring "thing"... but i dont see it that way, it's just another teenage movie.

xylophene i care, i'm muslim. and my religion have a weigth for me. i dont want to force it into anyone or to push people to do anything against their will.

but dont you see? a muslim girl sleeping with a jew? it's not logic!!! muslim girls by definition dont do such things, and definetely dont do this kind of things with someone from another religion.

so, somehow, in the movie, they are forcing someone to be "muslim"...

you arent sensible to that? i am. and it's an important part of the movie.

and about the artistic value... sorry, i'm not a lot into art. it's not clear enough for me.

eFaysal are you capable of understanding me? then i'm at the acceptable level. it's up to me to decide. not you. sorry dude. do an effort to understand and you will.

and thanks for reading anyway... and i wasnt a very caring student in English class... i hated the teachers.

Ilhem2

20 October 2006 16:02

hi,

Quote
LeMask
.....but dont you see? a muslim girl sleeping with a jew? it's not logic!!! muslim girls by definition dont do such things, and definetely dont do this kind of things with someone from another religion.

LeMask what maks you so sure? if I telle you I know many morroccan girls deating with jews moroccan guys in morocco and moroccan guys deating with jews girls in europ? what muslim girls are per definition is one thing what is happing in the reality is an other one.....

if something is not logic for us it doen't mean it doesn't exist and I think that's what the movie tried to say ....showing a couple of things in our society we don't want to aaccep....otherwise like most of the menbers I found the movie much more for teens.....it was succeful only because it talked about some taboos.....

chelhman

20 October 2006 17:00

Quote

LeMask
but dont you see? a muslim girl sleeping with a jew? it's not logic!!! muslim girls by definition dont do such things, and definetely dont do this kind of things with someone from another religion.

Funny how the same men who keep pushing that autistic view of the world, get to jump everything on sight, muslim or not, but God forbid their sisters get to do the same.

I know, I know, you're going to tell me that you're a devoute muslim and that you never touched a non-muslim girl...but then again...maybe you should, and maybe you should talk to her, don't worry they're not contagious smiling smiley

xylophene

20 October 2006 17:26

Quote
LeMask
Quote
sarah70
Assalam alaykum

xylophene i care, i'm muslim. and my religion have a weigth for me. i dont want to force it into anyone or to push people to do anything against their will.

but dont you see? a muslim girl sleeping with a jew? it's not logic!!! muslim girls by definition dont do such things, and definetely dont do this kind of things with someone from another religion.

so, somehow, in the movie, they are forcing someone to be "muslim"...

you arent sensible to that? i am. and it's an important part of the movie.

and about the artistic value... sorry, i'm not a lot into art. it's not clear enough for me.

eFaysal are you capable of understanding me? then i'm at the acceptable level. it's up to me to decide. not you. sorry dude. do an effort to understand and you will.

and thanks for reading anyway... and i wasnt a very caring student in English class... i hated the teachers.

This is exactly it, morocco or the world should not be stereotyped. who wants to leave his life differnetly from so called common trend would do it without being criticized by others.
I have no problem with as you said muslim girl being miles away from non-muslims, but for god's sake leave the ones who want to do it in a different way do it.
That's precisely what this movie tempt to underline.

LeMask

20 October 2006 17:52

Quote
chelhman
Quote

Funny how the same men who keep pushing that autistic view of the world, get to jump everything on sight, muslim or not, but God forbid their sisters get to do the same.

I know, I know, you're going to tell me that you're a devoute muslim and that you never touched a non-muslim girl...but then again...maybe you should, and maybe you should talk to her, don't worry they're not contagious
i understand that, but you are wrong here buddy.

i have a brother, he drinks (alcohol), doesnt pray(in fact, he neved did)... so? what should i say to someone calling him a muslim?
when i return to the definition of muslims, muslims DONT drink alcohol.

so if someone drinks alcohol, it's very simple, he isnt a muslim...

same logic for the girl who sleeps with a jew dude... she isnt a muslim...

the taboo isnt here... the taboo is that she refuses to acknowledge it. we are lying to ourselves... we call ourselves muslims/muslim country... while we are a godless society influenced by the muslim culture/religion.

do you understand me? i hope you do, because it's so obvious to me.

and plz, save me the bashing and the violent answers, if you dont want me to discuss here, i can leave with no problems. plz keep it civil.

xylophene, you dont get it, have sex with anyone or anything... it's NONE of my bussiness... but if you are a girl, and do it with a non-muslim. dont say that you are muslim, because it's false.

and by the way, in the case she is indeed a muslim, it's called Zina. and it's a crime.

she is a criminal somehow. so? another crime story?

i dont get it, this movie have a contradiction in it. i really dont get it.

chelhman

20 October 2006 20:26

LeMask,

I'm not going to bash you. If you've read me before, you know I never bite unless bitten
On the subject : we seem to have a different view on religion, you see a series of rules and regulations like in a cult. I see being a muslim as a state of mind, far deeper than not drinking alcohol, praying or dating outside your faith.

What the movie does, in a bulldozer mode I admit, is show that there are many levels of comprehension of religion. For instance, I've met an old woman from Fes who used to drink but made it a rule to herself to always be sober when praying. Her house was like the library of Congress, books from wall to wall and she could discuss the finer points and different interpretations of Islam like no other. She was worth a council of ulemas on to herself. I was in Thailand a few years ago, I've met muslims who don't even fast during ramadan, but they're adament about being muslims, I could go on and on.

Islam has been hijacked these past centuries by people who cut the feeding cord between knowledge and faith, so it shrunk into some sort of cult, smothered by its own selfrighteousness.

Unless we cleanse our ranks of the blind zealots, we'll keep sinking into the middle ages and the world around us will keep getting impossible to understand.

Marock was intended as a teen movie, it could have passed unnoticed, but the jackasses back home chose to hammer at it. They actually did us a solid, we now have a debate, it's healthy.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2006 02:21 by chelhman.

Ilhem2

21 October 2006 01:34

Hi everybody.

Quote
chelhman
LeMask,

.....Marock was intented as a teen movie, it could have passed unnoticed, but the jackasses back home chose to hammer at it. They actually did us a solid, we now have a debate, it's healthy.

Hi chelman,

with all respect I found it not really nice to call people home "Jackasses" the word mean to me idiot …or stupid ….this is a kind of discrimination or judgement we should not tolerate…..insulting others is never a good argument…. unless you mean something else ?!

chelhman

21 October 2006 01:56

Ilhem2,

I'm talking about the MUR (Mouvement Unité et Réforme), it's an islamist organisation back home, they raised this whole controversy and called for a boycott of the movie. They are also closely related to the PJD.
They went so far as to call Leila Marrakchi a zionist. Lovely people...

Ilhem2

21 October 2006 02:15

chelhman,

I thought so.....still insulting is a low level of discussing....anyway instead of boycotting the movie it became more successful....great publicity for Leila Marrakchi and her work.....

good night

sarah70

21 October 2006 19:13

salam alaykum

chelhman.

i have no though your a gentlemen who beleives on individuals freedom of speech and thought and that every human worthy of respect regardless for their background .

In the other hand i am quite sure ( still u can contradict me of course ) that all above does not apply on anyone bears ideas that related to our noble religion Islam that why you allowed yourself to call them with all those indecent words.

come on !! don t tell me their idea are 'obscure ' or kind of 'can keep their idea for themselves don t apply them to the society '.

instead did u try to sit down or even give them a chance to express their idea and try to find a commun ground on how to build our country all together without discrimination .or for you NO WAY anything extract from islam will not be valide beyond mosque border.

let me hear from you .

sarah70

21 October 2006 19:38

salam

sorry i meant 'i have no doubt 'not 'not thought .

chelhman

21 October 2006 20:12

sarah70, I strongly believe that these people are going to be the downfall of our religion.
Freedom of speech ? Where was that notion when they rallied to ban a movie that they haven't even seen yet ? These people don't believe in any kind of freedom and are certainly not representative of the very basic principles of our religion.

However, I do admit to be excessive when it comes to them, they bring out the worst in me.

P.S : I did sit down with them on many occasions, one of my cousins is a staunch supporter of the PJD. Their views are detrimental to our country, they feed on misery and preach rejection instead of inclusion.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2006 08:21 by chelhman.

sarah70

21 October 2006 20:43

salam alaykum

chelhman

you sound kinda of 'watchdog ' of any debate or news about 'islamic. Muslim or Islam ' in morocco as soon as u get any info you raise the red flag smiling smiley

which i look at it from the positive side even i don t agree with u when u draw aside the idea of debate with the opposite side and try to compromise . because all constructive ideas should be welcomed even if it comes from our 'enemy' as our beloved Prophet teach us 'tell the truth even againt yourself.

wa Allahu aalam

LeMask

21 October 2006 21:57

Quote

I see being a muslim as a state of mind, far deeper than not drinking alcohol, praying or dating outside your faith.

very good, i'm a muslim, and the prophets says that there is no barriers in religion.
but isnt your interpretation gone too far?
we have to be clear on some points. there is some points where there is no room for interpretation.
one of them is: muslim girls dont have sex with non-muslims.

it's so so obvious that there is NO ROOM at all for interpretation. freedom? oh yeah, i agree. but if you sleep with someone who isnt muslim... then you arent a muslim if you are a girl. sorry but i really think that there is no debate on that.

Quote

For instance, I've met an old woman from Fes who used to drink but made it a rule to herself to always be sober when praying. Her house was like the library of Congress, books from wall to wall and she could discuss the finer points and different interpretations of Islam like no other. She was worth a council of ulemas on to herself. I was in Thailand a few years ago, I've met muslims who don't even fast during ramadan, but they're adament about being muslims, I could go on and on.

wow... arent you going too far?
for the first example, maybe... the prophet asked to not pray when drunk... and i'm glad he did, because it could have been dangerous for him to forbid alcohol in the early stages of Islam. the faith was weak at that time.

but i dont think that her example is good. following it, or advicing it is a mistake.
a good muslim wouldnt put his hands in anything close to alcohol. this is Islam. strict? maybe... but fair. we arent hippies.

Quote

Islam has been hijacked these past centuries by people who cut the feeding cord between knowledge and faith, so it shrunk into some sort of cult, smothered by its own selfrighteousness.

and now, Islam is threatened by personnal interpretations... in the future we will have homosexual muslims and hippy muslims (who pray while taking drugs)... and our sick society will welcome them because gays are fashion and that hippies are "cool"...

yep, yep, well done dude... what is next? Nazi muslims? or warrior muslims who kill women and children and commit suicide? ... oh, wait, we already got some of these...

sorry man, there is the word of god, and his prophets... and it's called Islam. you follow it, you are a muslim, you dont... you are not... no one is forced to follow it (or supposed to be forced to).
so i understand you, and you have my sympathy... but where is the limit?

Quote

Unless we cleanse our ranks of the blind zealots, we'll keep sinking into the middle ages and the world around us will keep getting impossible to understand.

arent you a zealot of a new form of Islam? dont play with the word of god.
and for god sake stop giving me examples... quote the Coran for a change. i wont contradict you on that point.

Quote

Marock was intented as a teen movie, it could have passed unnoticed, but the jackasses back home chose to hammer at it. They actually did us a solid, we now have a debate, it's healthy.

indeed, very healthy.
first,there is an error. a muslim girl cant sleep with a non-muslim (jew or not)...
... wow, the movie looses 99% of it's interest once i take that...

now it's just the story of a girl with a jew dude... very interesting...

eh? is he jew? do jews do that? ... i have a jew friend and he wont touch a non-jew girl even if you pay him.

chelhman

21 October 2006 22:22

LeMask,

We are so far away from each other on the concept of our religion, you stick to a litteral interpretation of scriptures.
And Yes, there is a lot of room for interpretation contrary to what you think, I believe the Quran was intended to be read in conjunction of other books, our religion encourages the search for knowledge, you seem to find that knowledge just in one book. In my view, it's a misinterpretation of the message.

You have no doubts, I have plenty, because doubt is the engine that drives the search for knowledge, without it, we are a cult that hold the word of the scriptures as truths. Religion is not about truth, it's about improvement of oneself through knowledge.
The first muslims understood that, that's why Islam sore, now it's sinking. Islam is not associated anymore with discoveries, medecine, arts, astronomy...it's associated with people who believe they are holding the truth and everyone else is wrong. Some are ready to kill for it. Prove me wrong.

Like I said, Islam is not about prohibitions, rituals and superstitions, it's about the search for enlightnement.
We'll agree to disagree anyway.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2006 02:23 by chelhman.

LeMask

22 October 2006 00:24

Quote

LeMask,
We are so far away from each other on the concept of our religion, you stick to a litteral interpretation of scriptures.

but why not? we have to build on religion. not outside religion...
because you are adding up... what you are doing is wrong. and it's not Islam.

Quote

And Yes, there is a lot of room for interpretation contrary to what you think, I believe the Quran was intented to be read in conjunction of other books, our religion encourages the search for knowledge, you seem to find that knowledge just in one book. In my view, it's a misinterpretation of the message.

what kind of other books?
i wont follow a book written by a man. men arent perfect, they make mistakes.

and when god says dont kill women and children in war... i dont kill women and children in war... NO ROOM for interpretation...

if some dude comes and tells me, man=woman and start killing women aswell... very good, but he isnt following the muslim way... so he isnt a muslim.
and if he does the same with children and say that they will be adults tommorow... i will use the same logic and say that he isnt muslim.

your theory my friend isnt working...

Quote

You have no doubts, I have plenty, because doubt is the engine that drives the search for knowledge, without it, we are a cult that hold the word of the scriptures as truths. Religion is not about truth, it's about improvement of oneself through knowledge.

sorry, i have doubts... i ask myself plenty of questions...
when it comes to freedom of speech, or the freedom to leave Islam (remember? it's punished by death)... i ask myself plenty of questions every day.

but hopefully, i have clear ideas on some points. call it extremism. but it's the basics.

and sorry mate, but if the scriptures (Coran) arent seen as truth... then they are false. then how can you be a muslim without believing in the Coran (scriptures)...

i authorize you (as a muslim) to doubt the interpretation of the scriptures. or the reconstitution of the scriptures... but i wont accept any doubts on the Coran from a muslim. it's too crazy for my little brain...

Quote

The first muslims understood that, that's why Islam sore, now it's sinking. Islam is not associated anymore with discoveries, medecine, arts, astronomy...it's associated with people who believe they are holding the truth and everyone else is wrong. Some are ready to kill for it. Prove me wrong.

Islam isnt sinking, it's growing, there is plenty of uneducated people around. but the essence is good. they got the most important thing, the good intent... they will change with time. i have some hope.

for me, Islam is about science, litterature, art, freedom, honor and a sane way of life... but i have better things to do with my time than to scream it on the roofs...

and for me, you have to earn your status as a muslim.
you come and tell me that Morroco is a muslim country... while we have a huge alcohol industry... and our values are in the gutters...

Quote

Like I said, Islam is not about prohibitions, rituals and superstitions, it's about the search for enlightnement.
We'll agree to disagree anyway.

Islam is about a life style... and this life style is very clear. you follow it, you are muslim, you dont... you arent.

so go ahead, pop a bottle of wine... i wish good appetite... and call yourself muslim as long as you want... i wont believe you. and i wont look to hurt you.
but if someday you want to be a real muslim, you can count on my help to find your way.
i wont give you anything from me. all you will need would be a Coran, a book about Sunna and an arabic dictionnary...

chelhman

22 October 2006 16:45

Le Mask,

Islam in not a military organisation or a cult where you have to follow a manual or you're punished or excommunicated.
But reading you, I don't see any room for debate, we are light years away from each other, good luck with your certainties.
Cheers.

sarah70

22 October 2006 17:25

salam alaykum

chelhman

here u get the chance 'to sit down and discuss ' yet u run away .
we don t quite the debate because we are unable to convince the other with our viewpoint nor as you said :
" we are light years away from each other.

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