Morocco # English board

Hi

I can see you still debating the subject, i guess some are confused with the word "beeing a muslim".
I understand if a guy in a Bar with a botle of beer calling him self a muslim. cause beeing a muslim that means u believe in ALLAH and his prophete Mohammed (SWS) whitch lot of Moroccan do, but there are not "Moemining" cause al MOUEMIN is a person that does what Coran says.

Le mask I agree with u 100 % but u have to know, Morocco is a country where people like to have fun and when they get old then go back to The Coran. the fact is so many young are getting influence by the west and like to look like them, dress like them, so the can fell that they belong with them.


When u grow old and you still have your brain in it place, you find out there is no way than Coran way.
It take a MAN to regonize that, cause people a becaming afraid to mention they are muslim or to live like muslim.

have a nice day EID Mobared for you all.


ps. is just too sad if you die young you did not have time to regonize and follow the Coran.

sarah70, where did you get the idea that I'm trying to convince anyone ?
A debate is an exchange of views, but when you're faced with someone who's hiding behind the scriptures and refuses to use reasoning, that's not a debate, it's preaching.
I'm not here to preach or be preached to. So, like I said, if he's happy with his certainties, then godspeed.

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Le Mask,
Islam in not a military organisation or a cult where you have to follow a manual or you're punished or excommunicated.
But reading you, I don't see any room for debate, we are light years away from each other, good luck with your certainties.
Cheers.

you are right, it's not a military organisation... but maybe that it's the price of freedom. a freedom granted by our religion. all this chaos comes from our religion who isnt trying to control people.

but we have a problem, we have plenty of people who do a lot of crazy stuff and call it Islam. from the terrorists to these innocents teens who sleep with anyone they please.

i'm sorry, but life isnt so innocent. because there is a thing called responsability and consequences...

you can handle alcohol? free sex? so it's great.
but it's not the case of everybody... there is people who are going to get hurt.

just think, what would happen if this girl in the movie gets pregnant from this jew dude... you start to see the problem?
should she keep it? the baby will be a muslim or a jew? both? what kind of administrative status? bastard? name? legacy? you see? the whole system will be a failure in that case.

so, i'm sorry, but no sex outside marriage is needed.
and marriage is only the act of telling the society that X woman is with X man... and that they will take the responsability of anything coming from their union.
welcome in the world of Islam, where people have duties and a conscience...

they should make a MAROCK2... where the girl sleeps with a jew dude, and gets pregnant...
this should be interesting...

thanks for support.

and i was going to tell you something like:"we have indeed,light years away from each others... i hope you will get to my level someday soon..." ... but it's childish...

we are talking man, dont run away, what do you fear? to get convinced?
truth is the thing we dont want to hear.

aziz_dk, i understand what you say at 100%... but believing doesnt make them muslims...
it's a step, but not enough... they have to carry on.

in my eyes, and it's only my opinion, they are godless people lying to themselves... they will convert to Islam someday... once they will feel how plain and ridiculous their lives are... or when they will be weakened by the fear of death... giving them the most weak forms of faith available.

it's very sad...

LeMask,
I started by replying to some of your answers to chelhman, and then I realized after I had written one whole page that I haven’t even begin to address a quarter of the things I want to say in regards to your ideas and to the analysis you made to reply to chelhman. And so I decided to make it very short and brief.
I happen to believe that chelhman is one of the most honest and balanced people on our forum, I also happen to agree with him on many subjects and mostly his views about the rise of fanaticism and the role some wants religion to play in our lives. I believe religion is between a person and God a NO ONE is to impose his way of living his life on others. I even go further as to say that people like these hijackers of Islam, make people who are open minded stay even faraway from this great religion. People who go by nothing but the book, and don’t invest in knowing and incorporating the world changes in their lives are the reason why we Muslims are “SO LOVED” all around the world today, and why every nation of the worlds wants, but can’t have enough of us.
I believe that not you not any imam or scholar, no matter how many Azhar or karawiyyine diplomas he or she has, can say who is and who is not Muslim, as the role of oulama it to interpret and teach, not to enforce. And yet that’s exactly what you seem to be doing here, you wrote one phrase that made me shiver of horror and dismay at the same time and that I found a bit disturbing, you said, talking to chelhman I guess: “so go ahead, pop a bottle of wine... I wish good appetite... and call yourself Muslim as long as you want... I wont believe you. and i wont look to hurt you.”
And what I read in this phrase is not good, first it’s labeling, pop a bottle of wine, meaning you are already kafir, as for me, and even though I don’t drink, you make me want to open one just to show you that it’s none of yours or anyone’s business. Then came a mockery saying i wish you good appetite, that’s a bit low as an answer for chekhman who could be rated pretty high in respecting others on this forum. And third you said: “Say you are a Muslim I don’t believe you” I DON’T NEED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT I’M OR I’M NOT A MUSLIM!, a do not need, nor wish to have your approval for that, are we starting to loose our minds here or what? But the most disturbing thing you said was, and I quote: “and I won’t look to hurt you.” To me = I will hurt you if you don’t follow what I say. And that is worth a real stop and thinking, because we all know that violence is the mean fanatics use to promote their agenda, and intimidation is on the top of their lists, and by saying I won’t hurt you in my view, you are trying to put fear and scare people who disagree with you, as you definitely mean the opposite, if not why even use such a language in a civilized debate like this one?
I don’t even know why does ANYONE need to tell ANYONE if he or she is or is not Muslims, whose business is that? Isn’t it between a person and Allah? To have nowadays these psychopaths and so called Muslims sheering when they blow up children and women, mosques and churches and wanting us to go back to the caves is beyond believe. If anyone believes those are Muslims, I want them to know that I’m not. For these, my friends, are the minds that stopped peaceful religion known for love, peace and creativity from advancing, and these are the ones who want Morocco to change into Taliban like regime. Don’t let them do that; we will all pay the price.
Eid Mobarak to you all,
p.s I really don’t care much about MAROCK, but I’m glad it brought about this conversation.

Good morning Dear Chelhman
You are a muslim and discussing with muslims but you can still tell them Lakkoum diiinokom wa lia Diiiinnniiiii.It is a matter of freedom of thought which you love, others love to be hostages.
In order to be able to judge if alcohol is good for you or not, you need to taste it first. In addition there is no logic in forbidding the consum of alcohol. Il you drink an orange jus or any other jus, you are consuming alcohol. Any chemical analysis will identify ethanol in your drink. Most muslims are consuming alcohol in all forms. So alcohol as a substance can not be forbidden. Even in the Coran, it is recomended not to pray while you are drunk. In another part it is recommended not o Gamble or drink alcohol. However porc meet is clearly forbidden in Coran. Horrimat aalaikomo .....etc.
This issue of alcohol is an example of misunderstanding between those Perrots who learn Coran without making use eof their brains and those who allowed themselfs to think and ask critical questions.
Please if you drink a glass of good red wine with a good tagine, you wont be drunk and it is allowed.
Have a good day
Krim

Hi Almot, Hi Krim,

Thank you both for your enlightened views, it's reassuring to read people reasoning like the original message directed us to do. Proud to have you as fellow citizens.

For the record, I don't drink wine, not that I follow some sort of litteral guideline, I just get sick if I touch it, together with Champagne, which of course makes it awkward at every celebration or at a business deal signing

As for LeMask, you're so far out but I'll try to draw up an answer anyway. Just don't have time right now.

dear Almot, you are negative. or too sensitive... you went too far. there is no irony in what i said.
i told him, pop a bottle of wine if you want... drink alcohol, call yourself muslim... but I WONT believe him.
because in my mind, muslims dont drink alcohol... and the only thing that could change my mind would be to use this alcohol as a medicide for some kind of cardiac problem or such (some say that red wine is good for heart/blood pressure)...

but a normal muslim dude (healty) shouldnt need alcohol in his whole life.
so, his example of the muslim woman who drinks alcohol is just a big mistake. first, he is talking the example of a woman... i mean, a human...
i'm sure she is a wondeful person... you speak about her so well. but come on... she isnt god. she can make mistakes.

in fact, there is one man you can quote and take as example as, and it's our prophet... the prophet is a good example to follow. it's his role. and you can be better (no, plz, dont take it too bad. but even the prophet wasnt perfect.)
so for god sake... use your mind.

so, in Marock... are we talking about a girl mistaken as a muslim girl... or are we talking about a criminal muslim... because what she is doing is punishable... by our religious laws.
in the modern laws we call it prostitution. it's against the rules... the laws.

and our society have many problems, do we really need this kind of things?

i talk to you guys as i would talk to my brothers, as equals. i have no army behind me, i'm not violent... i'm just talking to you trying to convince you.
i dont overestimate myself, i have plenty to learn. but you guys... you are inventing new ideas.

our religion isnt frozen, we have a huge ability to change and adapt... it's called Ijtihad. there is there is these progressive muslims who are wonderful people... just incredible minds, sometimes hard to follow...

but arent you doing more than that? allowing alcohol? allowing prostitution? arent you going too far?

it's not freedom, it's anarchy...

what you are doing here(what i think you are asking for) is too much, it's too far from our religion. we can change it to better, but not take it out...

are you going to make a capitalist Islam? a selfish Islam (not helping the poors)? or a communist one?

i seriously think that you are going too far...

i have a teacher who said that before writing... you had to read everything.

read your Coran a little.

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LeMask
just think, what would happen if this girl in the movie gets pregnant from this jew dude... you start to see the problem?
should she keep it? the baby will be a muslim or a jew? both? what kind of administrative status? bastard? name? legacy? you see? the whole system will be a failure in that case.

In case you missed that part of the movie, each and every one of the characters are Moroccans, so if the scenario led to a pregnancy, it would be a beautiful moroccan baby. That should appease your administrative concerns.
As for faith, I guess that's for the parents to decide but something tells me that if they're openminded enough to love each other regardless of their differences, there's nothing to worry about.

You do know that all Moroccans are not muslims ? You do also know that our country does not discriminate ? Faith is not printed on the same green passport we all have. We are not Iran.

Or is the juxtaposition of the words jewish + Moroccan to difficult to bear ?
Like one the main characters (Yuri) says in the movie : "on est tous Marocains ici"

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i hope you will get to my level someday soon...

Are you so blinded by your certainties that you think you're better than me or everyone else here ? Do you believe that's a muslim attitude ?
Or haven't you read that chapter yet ?

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we are talking man, dont run away, what do you fear? to get convinced?
truth is the thing we dont want to hear.

Running away ? Do yourself a favor, browse through this forum and the one next door and check if I am one to run away from any healthy and constructive debate or even just for the sport of it, a healthy verbal jousting.
Convince me ? Oooh, I am convinced but not of what you think.

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in my eyes, and it's only my opinion, they are godless people lying to themselves... they will convert to Islam someday... once they will feel how plain and ridiculous their lives are... or when they will be weakened by the fear of death... giving them the most weak forms of faith available.

I've met people like you, discussed with them in Morocco, but they were usually illiterate and they had no access to the net or to any library. So they could be forgiven for thinking like that.
But you have an entire planet of knowledge at your fingertips and yet you seem to be happy in your padded room kind of thinking.

I was going to explain to you in detail how flaud your structure of thinking is, but I have the feeling it'll fall on deaf ears.
So my advice to you, my tough little friend, is : hit the books, not just one book, challenge your brain, that's all I can say.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2006 12:43 by chelhman.

Dear Chelhamn
Ask him to take "leMask" off.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2006 10:46 by Krim.

I'll ask him that Krim,

"TAKE LEMASK OFF, please.!!
Or Tear Down This Wall!!!" as hamid zahir said once upon a time...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2006 10:09 by Almot.

chelhman, you dont get it... i have nothing against jews... the problem isnt jew+morrocan... but the muslim+jew...
do i have to remind you that under the laws of Islam, the women arent allowed to marry non-muslim men...

the muslim man can marry a christian or a jewish woman under some conditions...

should we accept that? ... i dont know, right now, we dont have choice...
but it's not very correct on the religious side, i hope you can agree with me on that point (at least on this point)?

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Are you so blinded by your certainties that you think you're better than me or everyone else here ? Do you believe that's a muslim attitude ?
Or haven't you read that chapter yet ?

yep, i could have said that... but i didnt... read me again. it's silly indeed... i'm sorry just for thinking about that for a second...

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Convince me ? Oooh, I am convinced but not of what you think.

then convince me... or you think i'm "evil" or something...
come on, convince me... i'm all ears...

just explain to me, how on the religious "side"... a muslim girl can have sex with a jew dude... because following what i know about Islam... it's forbidden...

first, i said that it was fine, she wasnt muslim, so no "muslim" had the right to judge her on her life...
then, you refused this "logic"... so, give me an explanation, i'm so so curious to know what is in your mind...

LeMask, I already told you, you stick to a litteral interpretation of the scriptures, I don't.

There's a post here where we've already discussed that attitude, there's a video excerpt you can watch and a discussion with a rabbi, it illustrates perfectly what I'm telling you.

[www.yabiladi.com]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, that's not what I'm here for. We maybe speaking the same language but we don't seem to be communicating here.

Like I said, expand your knowledge beyond the scriptures maybe even date someone outside your faith, like the guy says in "Meet Joe Black", you never know, lightning could strike.

Themask,

I'm filled with joy when I observed a lot of progress in your english.

I will be filled with joy again when you will considere love as the most important
ingredient in a relation.


If a woman is in love with a man, what ever that one is, she will love to love sex with him.

Human nature is that since million of years.

And then you have to blame only love ... We can not stop people to desire ...

But never forget AIDS is everywhere, one have to be protected, so it comes to be religious, simply.


Religion is a very complex way of thinking, and a perfect secure way of living,
religion save you against your desire.


Islam have a very stable protocol to have a save relation ... You know all the story.

i'm taking a look at what you posted right now, but what is the point of having scriptures if it's not to take it litteraly?
and dont you see the danger of this?

Ben Laden is a good muslim then? he is killing women and children... even if the prophete did say very clear and obvious things about the rules of engagements to follow in a war time...

all Al-Quaeda would have to do is to say "dont stick to a litteral interpretation"... where is the limit?

do you understand me? how can we add up to the rules? how can we contradict the word of god?

and i'm surprised to see you quoting a Rabbi... since when Rabbis know about Islam? and even more, since when are we letting human beings teach us about the word of god?

anyway... i will look it up... but it's weird...

This is the good explanation with the opposite arguments. What Bin Laden does is follow literally the verses, taking them out of their historical context. Not the opposite. He is not doing Ijtihad, he is a salafist, salaf meaning going back 1300 years ago and applying literally the Coran verses.

You're trying to give the impression that terrorism comes from a progressive way of applying Islam while the opposite is true.

Also, why is it that a Rabbi should not know about Islam or an Imam should not know about Judaism. For centuries, pious people have been studying other religions along with theirs and all the interfaith debates came out of such people...

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LeMask
i'm taking a look at what you posted right now, but what is the point of having scriptures if it's not to take it litteraly?
and dont you see the danger of this?

Ben Laden is a good muslim then? he is killing women and children... even if the prophete did say very clear and obvious things about the rules of engagements to follow in a war time...

all Al-Quaeda would have to do is to say "dont stick to a litteral interpretation"... where is the limit?

do you understand me? how can we add up to the rules? how can we contradict the word of god?

and i'm surprised to see you quoting a Rabbi... since when Rabbis know about Islam? and even more, since when are we letting human beings teach us about the word of god?

anyway... i will look it up... but it's weird...

Salafist? i dont know the meaning of this word...
i know one word and it's muslim.
and the "muslim" word have a meaning... and it's supposed to be a perso who doesnt kill women and children in war... so call Ben Laden and his buddies as you want, i refuse to accept them as muslims... because we have very clear guide lines about the rules of engagement.

so let's stop adding up from our minds... salafist and such... it have no meaning... it's wrong.
what they are doing is wrong. and who defines what is wrong or not?

we muslim use the Coran and the Sunna for this.
we arent peaceful people, we dont fear violence. but we arent warriors who attack people for a yes or a no. we arent aggressors.
nationalism is a poor value for us, because as muslims, nationality as well as skin and color and such have no meaning...

we are totally free people, but we have duties toward our parents, children and our society.

and one of these duties is to provide to our children a good education following the muslim faith... and this is why, a muslim girl shouldnt marry a non-muslim. he have to convert to build a home with a muslim woman. it's not perfect... but it's not all bad.

so... marriage with a non-muslim is impossible. and sex outside marriage is forbidden by law.

the solution?
1- accept the deal...
2- leave Islam...

leaving Islam is punishable by law. but we are in 2006... we arent in a death/life situation anymore...
we should, through the Ijtihad, grant the right to leave Islam...

but we should, and it's only my very personnal opinion, make it final. once you leave Islam. it's forever... no turning back. we arent joking here and playing with religion.

so? better?

if you answer is "yes"... then do you think that what i just said is "opposed" to the "litteral interpretation" of the scriptures?
so? not so bad huh for a litteral interpretation...

salam , dear yabiladist.
I did read the whole comment that been posted on this forum and it lead from subject to another one the moroccan discussion. One westerner was wondering about our habit .he told me you Moroccan guys sit in the house with your guest for 15 minutes and you all finish it outside for 3 hours...
The movie I did see it too many times and also heard the idea behind it from the producer. personaly, I will not recommend that movie to nobody .here I am going to talk about it artisticaly and culturaly also: let's start by the creativity here the movie did not bring no new technique or beauty (jamilia ÌãÇáíÉ) . it was what called a direct shooting where the producer shoots scene after scene as they go deep in the movie. not like the real movie where the producer has to shoot scenes sometimes from the end to the movie ( as An example where the main character has to have a beard and shaved at the middle and end of the movie). scenario speaking any one without a sliced knowledge of scenario and script writing will do better( and the guys that frequently goes to the cinema that present hindu movie they can make a very beutiful stories of love and kind of stuff). I may agree that the producer has chosen some hot chicks and fags looking guys. No as a culture speaking . the start of the movie has nothing to do with the movie a man praying in the middle of the night (which we all know that was incorrect) and the camera went to the police and bribery...and moved thru the bac and school and love...which I really dont care much about .it is like any other movie people kissing and hugging and about to F@ck if was not going to be censored...dont bother me it happens on daily basis in Morocco..but what bothers me a lot and should bother any one that says shahada and I d himself as a Muslim is when the brother was praying she start insulting Islam directly...and talking trash about the prayer and guess what the prayer ÇáÕáÇÉis what id any one as muslim...cause you can hide that you drink and you can hide doing fornication (ÇáÒäÇ) and you can say that you gave zakat you can tell everyone that you went to hajj but you can not hide the prayers...and that what made everyone about the movie....


P.S : I am not here to lecture anyone...to keep the integrity of itself and not be a hyprocit. you have to play with the rule and regulations..you can not play basketball as a you play soccer...you have to play by the rules if you call yoursel a basket ball player..same principe apply to Islam ..you have to follow the Koran and sunna and do not taylor a Islam the way you like it...This remeind me of Mosailima la Kaddab when he came up with new rules and called it Islam...

Once you call yourself a muslim than obey the rules...like they say there is no try before you buy...

and guys you all been great and keep it up...and salam alaikoum..

Oh ok, I didn't know we were talking about the word muslim in its purity and philosophical meaning. Of course Ben Laden is not a muslim as per my and your understanding of Islam but unfortunately he is a good muslim to a very big number of moroccans and other muslims in the world who are not necessarely terrorist and that is the problem.

The other BIG contradiction in your message is when you say "Who are we to define what is wrong and what is not". In that sentence, you are explaining that religion is a personal matter and we should not judge others, and I totally adhere to this principle; yet few lines after, you allow yourself to do just that. What a "good muslim" should do and not do, "WE" as muslims need to do this and not that as you said. Well, how about saying things and applying them to ourselves first? Like religion is a personal matter and period.

The other point I would like to challenge is when you say that we are "totally free". That is just not true, you are not free, if you are to follow Islam rules or any other religions rules, you are bound to these rules, you are not "totally free", that is we don't eat pork, we don't eat in ramdan, we don't do this, we don't that... If you were free, you'd be atheist. so this is another contradiction in my opinion.

The third myth is that nationality has no values to "US", again why speak in the name of "US", I am sorry but nationalism has a big value to the large majority of muslims. You don't get into Morocco by declaring I am a muslim let me in but by stating your nationality. That is the reality and we need to deal with real things or we will always be debating in the arena of utopia and dreams which is very helpful for the dogma and philosophical study of the religion but not for bringing the religion to everyday's people life's on what they experience every day.

The 4th contradiction is that you accept to use Ijtihad so that leaving Islam does not become punishable by law anymore, while you refuse to talk about Ijtihad when it comes to women for exampl. Basically, you hail the literary use of the Coran in the issues that interest you but not others.

That is the big dilemma muslims are living today. Should we "go back" to Ijtihad (because this debate has been started by our ancestors, we are not inventing anything) or should we go back to applying the literary meaning of the verses? What makes this debate even harder to manage is that there is no Vatican in Islam that can decide in the name of all muslims. I guess it is good but the result is that everyone of us is trying to be the pope for the other.

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LeMask
Salafist? i dont know the meaning of this word...
i know one word and it's muslim.
and the "muslim" word have a meaning... and it's supposed to be a perso who doesnt kill women and children in war... so call Ben Laden and his buddies as you want, i refuse to accept them as muslims... because we have very clear guide lines about the rules of engagement.

so let's stop adding up from our minds... salafist and such... it have no meaning... it's wrong.
what they are doing is wrong. and who defines what is wrong or not?

we muslim use the Coran and the Sunna for this.
we arent peaceful people, we dont fear violence. but we arent warriors who attack people for a yes or a no. we arent aggressors.
nationalism is a poor value for us, because as muslims, nationality as well as skin and color and such have no meaning...

we are totally free people, but we have duties toward our parents, children and our society.

and one of these duties is to provide to our children a good education following the muslim faith... and this is why, a muslim girl shouldnt marry a non-muslim. he have to convert to build a home with a muslim woman. it's not perfect... but it's not all bad.

so... marriage with a non-muslim is impossible. and sex outside marriage is forbidden by law.

the solution?
1- accept the deal...
2- leave Islam...

leaving Islam is punishable by law. but we are in 2006... we arent in a death/life situation anymore...
we should, through the Ijtihad, grant the right to leave Islam...

but we should, and it's only my very personnal opinion, make it final. once you leave Islam. it's forever... no turning back. we arent joking here and playing with religion.

so? better?

if you answer is "yes"... then do you think that what i just said is "opposed" to the "litteral interpretation" of the scriptures?
so? not so bad huh for a litteral interpretation...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2006 05:34 by zaki7.