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Enlightened muslims are hard to find and are attacked when they dare preach an openess or a return to the roots of the search for knowledge, which made Islam great, once upon a time.
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whatever the subject, kat 9ra 3lia ss'tin 7izeb, so I don't see the point of debating.
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You first attacked "my lack of faith"
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I've always articulated my thoughts, read me again. You, on the other hand, keep giving your truths and expect me to adhere without arguing. Well, I'm moroccan among other things, and we love to argue, it's in our blood.
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Krim
Sometimes you quoted Chelhman that´s all.
Once again slow down before replying and read carefully.
You are a real "Tartar". You can not just try to throw words and judgement about a very serious issue like religious conversions. You just jump out of your religious confinement and start writing anything it comes in your minds. for instance and this is just tiny piece from all this garbage you are writing:
"in fact, i have more respect toward the people who lose faith... it's in their nature... they cant believe something they cant see... there is people like that... i know many... and i'm sad for them, they are lost souls aswell. but i keep hope that if they are doing their duties as "honest people"... god will treat them fairly."
So in your case do you see what do you believe in ????
How can you say they lost souls etc...?
As you said you are a freeman but you have to know a real free man has generally a lot of respect for others. You are not free at all, you are one of those hostages of a wrong religious education.
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chelhman
Let's take your example : you spit on anything coming from the West, reading you, you'd think you were talking about a plague. But you don't mind taking advantage of the social benefits, schools, universities, unemployment paychecks if you ever find yourself fired or fair courts of law when confronted with a injustice.
Now, isn't that hypocritical ? To top it off, I'll bet you wouldn't mind being naturalized, if you haven't done it already.
If you were truly a believer, you would pack your stuff and leave to a muslim land, taste the wonders of what a rigid muslim society has to offer.
In any case, the way I see it, you've forfeited your right to criticize the West, as long as you keep lavishing into a western society, you can't have it both ways. Let me know when you decide to move to Iran or Saudia Arabia, we'll have a true debate.
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chelhman
Izatis,
First off, it's not "occidental", it's "westerner". It shows respect for other readers when you make an effort to pick up a dictionary if unsure of the translation or spelling of a word.
A line from someone who has nothing to say really....judge me on the word used rather than the sense?????
Second, I, of course, disagree with you for a number of reasons :
Whether you like it or not, I am part westerner, I am a Moroccan born and raised in Europe, so, yes, you are hearing this from an "occidental".
You can say u are a westerner as long as you want, i'm talking about religion. living in an occidental counrty is not the point as i said, the point is our religion!!!!!
Our country is called "Al Maghrib", tell me, what does that mean in Arabic ?
And finally, on the "occidental" part of your rant, when you live in a culture long enough, you become part of it. Here's something from the Prophet himself :
"Man 3achara 9awoumen arba3ina yawoumen, assba7a minhoum"
(he, who lives amongst a people for 40 days, becomes one of them)
Become someone like an european, ok, but not lose our religion. don' t put words on the prophet's mouth sws, he was preaching God's faith, i don' t think he wanted people to abandon it!!!!!!
As for the main subject, read this post again, I respect these people's choice, because, as I stated, faith is a personal matter. Besides, as I said to LeMask, faith and dogma are two separate things.
But if you think you're holding THE truth and are comfortable with it, good for you. But it's not for you to judge others for their choices.
Tell me, would you have been so agressive, had it been an article about people converting to Islam ?
Or is your truth absolute and above others ?
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chelhman
Izatis, LeMask,
Since you seem to be of the same mindset, this addresses the both of you.
Read this post again, this is not a comparative study of two religions. There is no hierarchy in religions, people inherit them through their geography and culture, if you were born in Asia, the chances are you would be a buddhist or a taoïst. It's much like your nationality, you don't get to choose who you are at birth.
So showing contempt for Christians because their dogma is in contradiction with Islam's fundamentals is like despising someone because of his nationality or race, it's bigotry.
What I am saying is that, in this case, people choosing to leave the muslim dogma deserve as much respect as someone choosing to enter it. But you have a superiority complex, you believe Islam is better, or as LeMask put it, the others are primitive forms of Islam.
The only thing primitive here is your mode of thinking. You take things literally, I posted a link to Ibn Rushd's work, it wouldn't hurt you to read it, his criticism spoke of people like you.
LeMask, the answer to your question is YES, I would defend these people's rights to leave Islam, because it's about freedom of choice, freedom to worship. If they choose to apply their faiths differently, then that right is theirs and not for you or any governing body to control or hinder.
Leaving aside those who convert to emigrate, the others do it because they're thirsty for spirituality, their faith is choking in today's muslim psyche. It's something that should spark an inner debate in Islam not attacks towards those people. It's like when running a company, if your staff keeps leaving for the company across the street, spitting on them from the window as they're leaving, doesn't help you. The question you should be asking yourself is "what does the other company offer, that I don't ?"
So to follow this metaphor, keep spitting on them, when the best and the brightest would have all gone, you'll be left with the janitor to discuss your server problems or your finances. Does that look to you like good governance ?
One more time, this is not a theology debate, it's about freedom of choice and religion. Respect that and as we say back home : koul wa7ed y diha f'rassou.
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