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Moroccan Christians
27 January 2007 04:34
why chelhman? you will respect me more if you see me drunk?

no thanks anyway, i dont do this BS anymore...
p
27 January 2007 14:43
Quote
LeMask
why chelhman? you will respect me more if you see me drunk?

no thanks anyway, i dont do this BS anymore...



LeMask, I love reading you in every languages In love




hablas español tambien ? grinning smiley
!!*!! le seul chat autorisé sur ce forum
c
27 January 2007 17:03
Quote

LeMask
why chelhman? you will respect me more if you see me drunk?
no thanks anyway, i dont do this BS anymore...

So...bigoted, prejudiced and no sense of humour. You're quite a catch...
Jesus loves you.smiling smiley
28 January 2007 12:42
chelhman, i'm not neutral... so call me a bigot if you want to... i know my path.

i'm capable of choosing a side... while you sir, you are this weird kind of people who are neither here or here... just good to complain and whine...
let us do what we want. we owe you nothing...

thanks for support petit chat, but unfortunately, i dont speak Spanish... sorry cutie, but i dont like Spain that much...

and yes chelhman, i know, jesus loves everybody... but dude, dont hide behind the lack of sense of humor BS.. it's too easy. really. we were talking about "serious stuff"... joking here would be breaking the debate...
c
28 January 2007 20:26
LeMask, I was also talking about a very serious and complex matter but as always with you, whatever the subject, kat 9ra 3lia ss'tin 7izeb, so I don't see the point of debating. I might as well toy with yousmiling smiley
28 January 2007 20:42
where i do that please?
where i bring religious texts? where i do such thing?

you want me to talk about Morrocan Muslims turning into Christians without bringing the Muslim doctrine?
or you want me to talk with you without using human words? or you just want me to say "amen my lord" to everything you say?

excuse me dude, but how should i take this? i should get mad at you? or laugh to fake a sense of humor? ignore you maybe?

anyway, my message is clear, as a Muslim, i think that any Muslim converting to another religion is doing a huge mistake. and nothing pushs me to respect that... it's up to me to decide. i dont have to love them.

and you sir, are an annoying person, playing smart and insulting the intelligence of the others. have a nice day.
c
28 January 2007 20:55
LeMask, read what you wrote with neutral eyes. You first attacked "my lack of faith", then you gave me your usual self :
dogmatical with not one original thought and the muslim superiority complex we've come to appreciate so much from you.
As for "annoying", I know, my mother keeps telling me that, I definitely have to do something about itsmiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2007 09:02 by chelhman.
m
29 January 2007 09:27
Dear LeMask
I asked you before about your age (22). Now I am asking you to do an intellectual exercice.This will be of great importance for you. Take all the messages you wrote, print and read them carefully and tell us if they are all coherent and logical.Please try to pay attention to the meaning of the words you use.
I use to do this in order to make some order in my thinking and it is good for the intellect.
(in a discussion, timing, emotions, lack of a distance towards an issue etc....have a great influence..)

with all the respect
29 January 2007 13:12
I'm sorry Krim, but even if i admit that i write pretty fast and dont take the time to make a plan or to put some orders in my ideas...
i honestly see no problem in what i said. just show something you see as shocking.

dont do like Chelhman... please. he is the first to say "i dont agree" and the first to not explain his position.
you can't just come and tell me "i dont like the way you think, but i dont know why..." give your opinion, explain it, or at least try to explain it.

of course, you can do like mister Chelhman, and act like if your opinion is beyond human understanding... that we have to be a god damned genius to follow you...
the superior race to think for us... the only dude holding the truth...
c
29 January 2007 13:19
LeMask, you're ruining my lunch breaksmiling smiley

I've always articulated my thoughts, read me again. You, on the other hand, keep giving your truths and expect me to adhere without arguing. Well, I'm moroccan among other things, and we love to argue, it's in our blood.
What Krim told you, is actually very true, I often re-read myself on this forum, it gives me coherence. You should really heed his advice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2007 01:25 by chelhman.
29 January 2007 13:36
Quote

Enlightened muslims are hard to find and are attacked when they dare preach an openess or a return to the roots of the search for knowledge, which made Islam great, once upon a time.
+
Quote

whatever the subject, kat 9ra 3lia ss'tin 7izeb, so I don't see the point of debating.
+
Quote

You first attacked "my lack of faith"
+
Quote

I've always articulated my thoughts, read me again. You, on the other hand, keep giving your truths and expect me to adhere without arguing. Well, I'm moroccan among other things, and we love to argue, it's in our blood.

i give the definition of coherence:
coherence: Logical and orderly and consistent relation of parts.

you know, we arent president of state leaders or such... what we say isnt important. do what you have to do, and when you have time, come on the forum to speak your mind. play smart if you want. but dont take the others for idiots... for god sake.
m
29 January 2007 15:03
Dear LeMask
I took time to read your messages and copy/paste all of them (see below). I think your last prompt reply means that you do not need to reread your messages. This in turn means you are 100% convinced that all what you said is in fact the truth. This behaviour demonstrates that nature shaped your brain to be a perfect brain and therefore you belong to a superior race. We all make mistakes and if anybody advice me to look once again at my statements I will do before any reply. We are not here to give notes but we are here to learn from each other.
You better control the flow of words and ideas. The muslims used to call it Atartara







chelhman, your lack of faith is really annoying. you understand their choice? huh?
then do just like them. follow them already. they never understood the meaning of Islam if they left.
religion isnt a story, or a belief based on a feeling alone...
and more when we speak about Islam. Islam isnt just a religion... it's also a way of life... a culture...
once your inside this way of life, there is no way you would leave it... how can you betray someone who treat you like his brother?
these guys are only lost souls... i dont mean to disrepect christianity... it's just that Christianity gives nothing new...

i really dont see it as normal, how can a Muslim turn Christian? how? how can a Muslim turn into a man who thinks that Jesus was god? how can a Muslim believe in the trinity? how a Muslim who believes in justice can turn into a Christian supporting the Zionists?
and you understand them? go ahead then, explain to me plz... because i dont. i honestly dont.

i can understand that Krim, but still, i have answers to some questions.
and there is things a Muslim shouldnt be asking himself, because they are part of the basis of Islam.
if you dont understand these, you are really a very poor Muslim.
Chelhman expressed doubts about the very foundation of our religion in other threads.
i respect neutrality, but is a Muslim neutral? are we really neutral? not, we have a side, and a clear one. and this side, is the side of god.

if we can understand a Christian, we shouldnt understand a Muslim turning into a Christian. it's total non-sense...

i will give an example, but if a Christian reads me, plz dont feel insulted. it's a very simple example of a very complex concept.

you take a slave and a free man.
if you ask the slave "is it normal for you to have a master" and that he answers "yes"... i'm not mad at him, he was a slave all his life. i CAN understand that.
but to see a free man, who was born free. choose a master... this is madness... it's NOT acceptable.
to see a who man said "god is unique and i dont mistake him with his messenger (Jesus and the other prophets)" turn into a man who mistakes the messenger with god...

it's CRAZY... so, the answer is simple. he was never Muslim... he had the word "Muslim" written on his paper work... maybe... but he wasnt Muslim. only a Muslim who lost touch with reality (turned crazy) could do such thing... i cant even start to understand that...

but Chelhman, god bless him, is smart enough to understand that. so please share. because i'm seriously and honestly lost...

Quote:
We've had this conversation before, Islam is not a cult, you treat it like a cult with quasi-military rules. You claim you don't mean disrespect towards Christians but you seem to despise them or at the very least seem to think that their beliefs are misguided. There's nothing more dangerous than people who are convinced they're holding the truth and everyone else is wrong.
indeed man. but let me remind you an important thing. we are Muslims, and Islam have connexions with Christianity. HUGE ones... and one of them tells us that the Christians are indeed misguided... they mistake Jesus with god... it's our version. they ARE misguided. but we arent mad against them, they are the people of the book(just like the jews). they are NOT godless people, they arent evil, they arent like the "others"...

but they believe in the 10 commandments, and they fail in one, because they associate god with Jesus.

but to see a Muslim who had in his education, the necessary concepts to distinguish god from his messengers... turn into a Christian, there is a HUGE regression... he did a step backwards...

what he have done is WRONG... and as a Muslim, he knows it.

you know man, i was in school, and we studied Islamic education... like a lot of kids, and they told me that the people leaving Islam should be condemned to death. i was sure at 100% that it was part of my religion some months ago. until i read about the meeting between the pope (the actual) and a mufti from Algeria, and the mufti spoke about some versets in the holy Koran talking about "freedom in religion"...
and this versets match in my mind. it would be really "evil" to sentence to death a "lost soul"...but still, they are lost souls... and nothing pushs me to respect their choice (sorry, not a hippie)... they are doing a mistake. i dont respect their choice, i just dont care. because i can do nothing for them... or even against them if i wanted to...

Quote:
How can a Muslim turn to Christianity ? Just by reading you, you epitomize everything that is wrong right now with some Muslims, you're intolerant, arrogant with unfortunately for you no reason to be, and your knowledge of others is tantamount to what a child in primary school would know.
this is non-sense... i'm intolerant? so be it. so? where is the problem with Islam? i was made by Islam? Islam says that i'm the one speaking for god?
so what? if all the Muslims turns into evil people, does it mean that Islam is evil?
no religion holds the market when it comes to good and evil, tolerance and intolerance... there is good and bad people everywhere...

but still, i keep my position, you CANT be a Muslim and turn into a Christian... unless you were a "funny" Muslim... a really funny one.

Quote:
Take your remark on Christians and Zionists for instance, you take one small group of US evangelists and lump all of Christianity in it. And it's not even a religious move, it was a political move with neocons pulling the strings to put the village idiot in the White House.
excuse me dude, i just made an example... can a Muslim turn into a Zionist Christian? using your logic. why not? a Muslim can turn into a Christian... one step further... and he turns into a Zionist... why is it so hard to believe? are you intolerant? (kidding)...
but using your logic, everything is possible. and we have to be tolerant and accept anything...

but i'm calling your faith, if you have any... god, the entity who created you. told you that there was no god but god. that Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are ONLY his messengers. that he Muslims are the ones who believe in that.
so how dare you to just accept to see a Muslim turn into a man denying the message of our prophet (while he knows about it)... and to mistake god with Jesus?

it's hard to take... but you accept it too easily... i agree with you that they should be punished, that they should have the right to say it without fearing anything. but still... you dont have to respect that. they have done a mistake. may god show them the right path, because we are powerless now... but it's a sad story...

happybrain, maybe... but we have to save ourselves from this doctrine coming from the Occidental world saying that ignorance and religion walk hand in hand. religious knowledge is part of the general knowledge.
we can have both at the same time, you can be religious and a scientist. the problem is with these people who deny their own religion to look modern following this laic movement from the occidental world.
we have a very different culture. and our history is no way comparable with theirs. so their conclusions arent welcome. watch out from blind copy cat.

the Christian world suffered from a religious clergy. kings talking for god. we had our share of these. but still, our religion never installed a tyrant on our heads. in fact, the religious knowledge is the only thing protecting us from these things. we all know how the Ulemas (i dont mean the group we actually know) suffered from the tyrants in the past because they were defying their powers...

we arent Christians, we have our own religion, and our own history. dont use blindly anything coming from them.

the problem comes in fact, from some "occidentalised Muslims" who are really confused. some try to make Alcohol legal... just to look "modern" because their "religion is freedom loving"... we are Muslims, we are NOT islam sellers... so watch out, dont adapt the "product" because it's NOT a product...
Krim, i understand that... but you have to be a free thinker first. what do you call developpement? what is good and evil? what is modernity? is China or Japan really growing?

and there is Muslims trying to make alcohol legal... i know many of these guys. and yes, we have to be "open minded", and we are. the Christian world suffered from a clergy... this clergy took their freedom and installed a tyrant on their heads (kings and the feodal system)... their religion was used to manipulate them.
but they are smart people, and with time, they invented the things they needed. example? laicity and the separation between the church and the state.

these two principles (to just talk about these two) are a big part of their culture now.
but are these principles "useful" in our countries? in our system? with our religion? dont you see it? we are different. we dont need that. open minded? of course... but not blind...
separation between the church and the state? okay, but find the church to begin with. we dont have any.

and the list is long... their values and systems are very good... for them... we can study them. we can respect them and understand them. but we have to agree on, one major point... we dont need them.

and Krim, i have a girl in my team who is calling herself Muslim and saying that Islam doesnt forbid Alcohol... she is very popular among christians... i'm not mad at her, she is a friend afterall... but come on... alcohol is bad, so it's forbidden... simple logic... and where is the point to keep up talking with such people? i just avoid the topic.

this is not how i see the perfect society... and in my perfect society, the Muslims who turn into Christians arent prosecuted. but they arent respected neither... they did a mistake. let god judge them. as long as they are honest people, they should have nothing to fear...

okay, chelhman, i'm reading you carefully. in my opinion (excuse me for putting my opinion without you asking you) (i'm judging you here, but it's not final)... you are confused. confused between many concepts.
first, i'm not making comparition between Islam and Christianity.
i have nothing against Christians. in fact, i say that today, they are better than us. they live better than us, and care more about the others. while we are agressive and hateful (in general) these days. nothing very good can get out of our minds right now, we are pissed off...
but, i'm a Muslim. and i have a muslim way to see the world. what is a Christian? it's someone not believing in Mohammed, and also a perso who see Jesus as god... i wont ask for more details. it's not the point. what is important for me. is that he shares the room of god with a man. and doesnt believe in the last prophet.

it's NOT a crime. he lived that way since he was born. it's part of his nature now. and he is in fact, a good person (because of the teachings of Christianity)... so i have no reason to fight him, hate him, get mad at him...
but let's take a Muslim... who believes in god. and believes in Mohammed. if someday, this guy deny all the teaching of our prophet. and take Jesus as god...
i'm not going to be happy for him... he made a terrible mistake. and i dont want to see the others just think for a second that what he have done is right... or smart... or respectable...
not, he did a mistake. a HUGE one. i'm angry... i dont like this guy. i dont want him next to me. or next to my people. the only defense i have for him, is to say that he is crazy... or that he was never a Muslim... because he shows a lack of knowledge about Islam or a huge weakness...
if he can turn christian, then he can turn into something worse... i dont know. a Nazi. a KKK Christian... a Zionnist Jewish... a Satanist... i dont know...

in fact, i have more respect toward the people who lose faith... it's in their nature... they cant believe something they cant see... there is people like that... i know many... and i'm sad for them, they are lost souls aswell. but i keep hope that if they are doing their duties as "honest people"... god will treat them fairly.


Quote:
The movement towards Christianity is more of a sociological phenomena. Some do it to emigrate, others are tired of the hypocrisy of the muslim mindset, the prohibitions or the narrowmindedness.
ah great... so you have to fight this movement. how could we survive if we lose quality people? how can i fight the extremists if the moderate try to lie to get a better life? how can i fight the narrowminded people if the moderate flee and hide? but, i will agree with the extremists, a lot of prohobitions are good for us. if they dont like it. i dont force them to follow me. but they will not be my brothers.

example: the society would be better without drugs and alcohol. if they are aware that it's better for them. then they forgot an important teaching of our prophet Mohammed saying that we shouldnt hate something good for us.

and it's arrogant to accuse people of hypocrisy... we dont know what is in their minds.


Quote:
Let's take your example : you spit on anything coming from the West, reading you, you'd think you were talking about a plague. But you don't mind taking advantage of the social benefits, schools, universities, unemployment paychecks if you ever find yourself fired or fair courts of law when confronted with a injustice.
Now, isn't that hypocritical ? To top it off, I'll bet you wouldn't mind being naturalized, if you haven't done it already.
excuse me one minute. i dont spit on everything coming from the West. but there i dont have faith in a lot of things. you speak about naturalization... what is the meaning of that? where is the problem?

i'm not a Morrocan, i'm a Muslim. a freeman... i dont belong to anyone. Morroco or France... they are just lands. Morroco is the land where i belong. i was born there. my family is there. my property is there.
it have nothing to do with the paperwork... i dont care about what the Morrocan state say...
but i care about the French state. here i'm a foreigner, it's not my place. i'm here as a guest. i can give advices, but i wont fight to change things... in fact, i dont care about nationality... i care about the people in front of me. what is in their minds...

i dont think by political choices (democracy or others), i think by human quality... i dont cut the society into leftwingers and rightwingers... i cut it into honest hard working people, criminals, capitalist slavers, feodal slavers (land owners), political slavers... egoist scum, racist scum and more...
today, i'm a slave. i'm owned by Morroco. i know that the French master treats his slaves much better.i would be pretty dumb to not want to join them? but i'm a fool. i love the other slaves back in Morroco. i think that they want me. or even need me. so i dont want to be naturalized. but i would accept one.
because being French adds to my right, and takes nothing from me (following what i know of course)...

and i'm here to study... to see the world... it's what we are supposed to do, not?

happybrain, i agree with them sometimes. but there is extremist Muslims who are enlightned. they speak about pure freedom. they speak about faith (not in god alone, but in the system)... some people see them as backward, because what they speak about is old.
but think carefully, wasnt the CowBoy with a gun in the desert a freeman? a total freeman?

and excuse me happybrain, but i do.

Quote:
We need to lead people by example and I am sorry to hear that instead of empowering your friend you rather keep quiet and ignore her.
i said that i avoid talking about these topics with her. but we cant ignore each others that much... in fact, i say that i disagree... answer the questions... that is all.

and in real life, i'm very silent, i dont have the energy to talk. honestly.
and what you said about the Sa7aba is pretty interesting. i like indirect approachs. like the old way to speak about philosophy. when Plato and his followers used to use a long speech between two men to explain their ideas. it's a bit like the good and bad cop... but it's great. and very fun to read.


okay,chelhman...
can you put one thing your head? i dont watch Arabic TV channels... and i dont spend even a minute in the mosque...
but still, when you dont have faith, you read more about Islam. and if you look for "something different"... you wont find better in Christianity or Judaism...
i'm 100% certain of that... for the simple reason that Islam have an unique position toward these religions...

and you, as a Muslim, you have to understand me on this point.
how can a Muslim turn into a Christian??
and cut the speech about how "people like me" (like you you know me to begin with) are the "problem" of Islam...
we dont leave a religion because we dont like some people... you just dont...

"i dont like Osama Ben Laden, i'm so leaving this religion..." it's so dumb that i dont even think about it... am i going to convert if Michael Jackson converts to Islam? ... hellow... this is not a relevant argument...

you are confused Chelhman... you dont trust yourself and what you got...
why chelhman? you will respect me more if you see me drunk?
no thanks anyway, i dont do this BS anymore...

chelhman, i'm not neutral... so call me a bigot if you want to... i know my path.

i'm capable of choosing a side... while you sir, you are this weird kind of people who are neither here or here... just good to complain and whine...
let us do what we want. we owe you nothing...

thanks for support petit chat, but unfortunately, i dont speak Spanish... sorry cutie, but i dont like Spain that much...

and yes chelhman, i know, jesus loves everybody... but dude, dont hide behind the lack of sense of humor BS.. it's too easy. really. we were talking about "serious stuff"... joking here would be breaking the debate...

where i do that please?
where i bring religious texts? where i do such thing?

you want me to talk about Morrocan Muslims turning into Christians without bringing the Muslim doctrine?
or you want me to talk with you without using human words? or you just want me to say "amen my lord" to everything you say?
excuse me dude, but how should i take this? i should get mad at you? or laugh to fake a sense of humor? ignore you maybe?
anyway, my message is clear, as a Muslim, i think that any Muslim converting to another religion is doing a huge mistake. and nothing pushs me to respect that... it's up to me to decide. i dont have to love them.

and you sir, are an annoying person, playing smart and insulting the intelligence of the others. have a nice day.

I'm sorry Krim, but even if i admit that i write pretty fast and dont take the time to make a plan or to put some orders in my ideas...
i honestly see no problem in what i said. just show something you see as shocking.

dont do like Chelhman... please. he is the first to say "i dont agree" and the first to not explain his position. you can't just come and tell me "i dont like the way you think, but i dont know why..." give your opinion, explain it, or at least try to explain it.

of course, you can do like mister Chelhman, and act like if your opinion is beyond human understanding... that we have to be a god damned genius to follow you...
the superior race to think for us... the only dude holding the truth...
29 January 2007 15:14
Krim? what is this? you just quoted me and sometimes, you quoted chelhman...
i still dont see the problem...

Krim, you can see me as an extremist if you want to. but we need to take a position someday.

and i refuse to be tolerant to please the others. it's up to me to decide when to be tolerant, and when to be peaceful...
i'm not into accepting everything in the name of freedom. i have my freedom aswell.
and i refuse to respect someone leaving Islam... i wont stop him. he owes me nothing. but my opinion is clear. he made a mistake. and it's his problem. not mine.

where is the problem in my position? do i owe him something? i really dont...

and once again, i dont see the crime... i did nothing wrong.
m
29 January 2007 15:49
Sometimes you quoted Chelhman that´s all.
Once again slow down before replying and read carefully.
You are a real "Tartar". You can not just try to throw words and judgement about a very serious issue like religious conversions. You just jump out of your religious confinement and start writing anything it comes in your minds. for instance and this is just tiny piece from all this garbage you are writing:

"in fact, i have more respect toward the people who lose faith... it's in their nature... they cant believe something they cant see... there is people like that... i know many... and i'm sad for them, they are lost souls aswell. but i keep hope that if they are doing their duties as "honest people"... god will treat them fairly."

So in your case do you see what do you believe in ????
How can you say they lost souls etc...?

As you said you are a freeman but you have to know a real free man has generally a lot of respect for others. You are not free at all, you are one of those hostages of a wrong religious education.
29 January 2007 16:13
they are lost souls, because they dont believe in god, or because they mistake a man (Jesus or another) with god...

once you mistake what is from god with what is from humain beings... you are lost. a lost soul...

not, i dont think that. a freeman doesnt ask the others if he have to respect the others...

dont be narrowminded Krim.
there is a difference. -1 0 +1 ... i dont disrespect them. in fact, i'm neutral. for me, they are doing a mistake.
do i have to respect someone for doing a mistake?
sorry, but i dont respect different people... i have respect for people who share the same things as me.

but once again, name the issue... when i see a dude saying that helping the poors is a mistake. that it's only making them weaker... i dont respect his opinion. he is making a mistake.

god thought about the perfect system, and he judged that the perfect society have to care for the poors... and anyone thinking otherwise is JUST making a mistake.

nothing pushs me to respect his position... and nothing pushs me to accept it.
but in the other hand, it's none of my bussiness... he owes me nothing.

i'm totally free. your doctrine of tolerance for anything and everything isnt good. i wont accept anything to look peaceful and tolerant...

i'm not a car broker... i dont sell religion...
m
29 January 2007 16:18
TARTAR
I
29 January 2007 21:25
Hi veryone,


Quote
Krim
Sometimes you quoted Chelhman that´s all.
Once again slow down before replying and read carefully.
You are a real "Tartar". You can not just try to throw words and judgement about a very serious issue like religious conversions. You just jump out of your religious confinement and start writing anything it comes in your minds. for instance and this is just tiny piece from all this garbage you are writing:

"in fact, i have more respect toward the people who lose faith... it's in their nature... they cant believe something they cant see... there is people like that... i know many... and i'm sad for them, they are lost souls aswell. but i keep hope that if they are doing their duties as "honest people"... god will treat them fairly."

So in your case do you see what do you believe in ????
How can you say they lost souls etc...?

As you said you are a freeman but you have to know a real free man has generally a lot of respect for others. You are not free at all, you are one of those hostages of a wrong religious education.


dear Krim,

plz don't wast your time....some people are definitely hopless....
r
30 January 2007 16:14
I've been away for a month on vacation, unfortunately I could not not make it to morocco. And now I'm back and see things haven't changed around here...
About some moroccans converting... it is true. this is happening because many religious organizations are present in morocco preaching christianity, mind you not in big cities, but in remote places. Places where OUR government does not give a flying f**ck about these places, no help, no education, no health, nada.... these organizations give hope to those remote areas, they teach them several things, provide them with food, education and they even translated the bible to amazigh. come on guys check this ionformation about a report on berbers:

What are their needs?
There are several Christian resources available to the Arabized Berbers; however, most of the tribes remain less than 1% Christian. Several missions agencies have targeted the Arabized Berbers living in European nations, but they have had little success. New strategies must be developed and implemented so that these tribes can be effectively penetrated with the Gospel.

Prayer Points
Ask God to call out prayer teams who will begin breaking up the soil through intercession.
Pray for the small number of Arabized Berber Christians.
Ask God to give the missions agencies new strategies for reaching these tribes with the Gospel.
Pray that the Lord will raise up qualified linguists to complete translation of the Bible into each of the Berber languages.
Ask the Holy Spirit to soften the hearts of these Muslim tribes towards Christians so that they will be receptive to the Gospel.
Pray that God will reveal Himself to these precious people through dreams and visions.
Ask the Lord to raise up strong local churches among each of the Arabized Berber tribes.


need more info: then go to: [createinternational.com]
enjoy
h
31 January 2007 22:00
Krim said in response to some other discussions a while ago in this forum:
Dear All,
May be, we should ask some questions. Why was it possible to colonize the arab world ????
Why do we have to much illeterate peoples in the arab world?
Why do we have to much corruption and corrupted governements?
Why our economic situation is so bad ??
Why did we left our homeland to study and work abroad ?
Why do peaple risk their life trying to immigrate to europe?
Why do these Irakis and Iraniens become boat peoples?
And Why they are trying to convert in order to stay in Australia ?
Is it really because of Islam ?
My answer is NO. Look at Maalysia......Malysians are muslims and proud to be muslims.They are hard working peoples ????

We came to this situation because of our rigid conception and understanding of islam. The truth is in the holy book, every solution is in the holy book.
Do not ask questions. Brainstorming, commun sense and logic should be at the heart of our life (Ibn Ruschd). We need smart muslims who can think and not muslims who learn the coran by heart.
Our kids should be confronted with the coran, once they can speak, write and understand the arabic language. They sould learn mathematics as their ancestors did.They should interact more with nature, matter try to understand the universe using scientific mind......


It does make sense what Krim said. If you have the right questions, we will discover the answer.
1 February 2007 00:03
everytime we start to question our religious principles bad things happen...
we care for freedom and we get alcohol...
we care for justice and human rights and the criminal grow stronguer and more able to get away...

the problem isnt there... the problem isnt in our laws, our principles, our traditions...

all of this is a probleme of faith. we lost faith in the system. why we dont vote? because it's useless. why we dont listen to the cops? because we dont have faith in them, we all know they are corrupt.

why are we poor? because we think that money comes from outside...

all these questions got an answer in our religion. you are poor? work hard. you are illetrate? go study...

if we follow our religious principles, we will get educated people... honest hard working citizens... and we will be a great country.

but people linked our religion with bad stuff, like violence and such... so even when i talk about Islam among Muslims, their minds start to think about violence and bad stuff...

it's very sad... when i say "let's return to our religious principles" you think about "let's live like in Saudi Arabia"... it's very sad. we lost the trust in ourselves. we lost faith in the future...

we are in hell right now... i dont like what i see in my country. and i'm sure that it's going to be bad... really bad...
r
1 February 2007 17:13
I agree with you completely. Today, if you speak about religion and to be considered a true moslem you have to be an extremist, no TV, no Internet, no music and so on. If you are more open towards religion, you'll be labeled "Kafir", there is no middle term. Then, most messages calling for extremism and radicalism are originated from these channels, i.e., Internet, TV etc.
We moslems feel proud when other people from other religions become moslems. But when the situation is the opposite (i.e. moslems becoming christians) we start cursing them. Nobody changes for no reason, we have to open our minds and think why is this happening? as Lemask said lack of faith in our government, security etc.
Maybe as I left my country I am also to blame for the lack of faith, I still don't have faith my country will change. What am I doing for this to change? I guess nothing but complain. SO I suppose there is a hair of responsibility in this.
1 February 2007 17:26
riffman, it's not that simple.
we are Muslims. we believe in something different.
we recognize Jews and Christians. let's speak honestly for a moment.

we see Christianity and Judaism as primitive forms of Islam. so we shouldnt be happy to see a Muslim turning into a Christian or Jew... because there is a loss there. there is no evolution.

i'm happy to see a godless person turn into a Christian or a Jew... but when it's a Muslim... i deeply think that something isnt right...

it's not about balance of power... it's about my beliefs. from my perspective. he is doing a mistake. he is loosing it...

if i have to be accused of being a biggot or a racist... or whatever, so be it. i take it. but still, i think that someone turning his back to Islam to join a sect or another religion... is doing a mistake to put it simple.

but it looks like the Muslim point of view isnt accepted anymore... even by Muslims... so when i say that a Muslim turning Christian is doing a mistake... even the Muslims, even my brothers... come to bash me...

we live in a dark time...
r
1 February 2007 18:06
I share your opinion fully. Of course it is painful to see a moslem turning into another religion, being christian, budhist, etc... what I was saying is there is a reason for this to happen. Nowadays we are labeled as merciless, killers, people who still behave as 1500 years ago, and who want to rule the world and bring it to fascism... this is the western media! and what is the moslem community doing about it? nothing. I don't blame them, it's just the tip of the iceberg. I live among christians, don't know a moslem around here. But I am still proud of being a moslem.
We do live in a dark time, as you say. so what would be the solution to get rid of this period?
I read in the papers about wars, and it's moslems against each other. Doesn't GOD forbid this? that is the question they ask me here.
I
9 February 2007 19:44
Quote
chelhman
Let's take your example : you spit on anything coming from the West, reading you, you'd think you were talking about a plague. But you don't mind taking advantage of the social benefits, schools, universities, unemployment paychecks if you ever find yourself fired or fair courts of law when confronted with a injustice.
Now, isn't that hypocritical ? To top it off, I'll bet you wouldn't mind being naturalized, if you haven't done it already.
If you were truly a believer, you would pack your stuff and leave to a muslim land, taste the wonders of what a rigid muslim society has to offer.
In any case, the way I see it, you've forfeited your right to criticize the West, as long as you keep lavishing into a western society, you can't have it both ways. Let me know when you decide to move to Iran or Saudia Arabia, we'll have a true debate.

I am amazed; really, with all this crap. it's as if i could hear an occidental speak in my ear. waw!!!!
islam and being a muslim is a religion and a guide ( with spirituality, morality and law). what the heck has living in a muslim or non muslim country to do with hypocrisy????
has Allah said we should all live in saoudi arabia or iran?? has HE said that they were the perfect example in islam guidance? unbelievable...i can' t believe it.

A muslim can live anywhere as long as he follows the right path, and doing so in a non muslim country is more difficult as the holy book says. Leave aside all that crap we hear from europeans because when we come to a occidental country we have to follow the rules but when they go to islam countries, they can buy off people and make them change their religion and they bring with them their plague like alcohol.

I don' t care about what others do, if they change their religion or not, if they worship Allah, a stone or jesus but MAY GOD ENLIGHTEN ALL THOSE WHO ARE LOST and many are in this world.

Turning a christian when one was once a muslim seems wrong to me because i cannot fathom someone believing that a human being (jesus) can be god.

there's a phrase that applies to what civilisations have done for centuries: DIVIDE AND RULE, and gee, it works!!!!!
c
10 February 2007 01:27
Izatis,

First off, it's not "occidental", it's "westerner". It shows respect for other readers when you make an effort to pick up a dictionary if unsure of the translation or spelling of a word.


Second, I, of course, disagree with you for a number of reasons :
Whether you like it or not, I am part westerner, I am a Moroccan born and raised in Europe, so, yes, you are hearing this from an "occidental".
Our country is called "Al Maghrib", tell me, what does that mean in Arabic ?smiling smiley
And finally, on the "occidental" part of your rant, when you live in a culture long enough, you become part of it. Here's something from the Prophet himself :


"Man 3achara 9awoumen arba3ina yawoumen, assba7a minhoum"
(he, who lives amongst a people for 40 days, becomes one of them)

As for the main subject, read this post again, I respect these people's choice, because, as I stated, faith is a personal matter. Besides, as I said to LeMask, faith and dogma are two separate things.
But if you think you're holding THE truth and are comfortable with it, good for you. But it's not for you to judge others for their choices.
Tell me, would you have been so agressive, had it been an article about people converting to Islam ?

Or is your truth absolute and above others ?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2007 02:56 by chelhman.
10 February 2007 01:28
amen to that my friend...
i'm not the only one thinking that way then... phew... thought i was crazy... Oh
I
10 February 2007 15:56
Quote
chelhman
Izatis,

First off, it's not "occidental", it's "westerner". It shows respect for other readers when you make an effort to pick up a dictionary if unsure of the translation or spelling of a word.

A line from someone who has nothing to say really....judge me on the word used rather than the sense?????

Second, I, of course, disagree with you for a number of reasons :
Whether you like it or not, I am part westerner, I am a Moroccan born and raised in Europe, so, yes, you are hearing this from an "occidental".

You can say u are a westerner as long as you want, i'm talking about religion. living in an occidental counrty is not the point as i said, the point is our religion!!!!!


Our country is called "Al Maghrib", tell me, what does that mean in Arabic ?smiling smiley
And finally, on the "occidental" part of your rant, when you live in a culture long enough, you become part of it. Here's something from the Prophet himself :
"Man 3achara 9awoumen arba3ina yawoumen, assba7a minhoum"
(he, who lives amongst a people for 40 days, becomes one of them)

Become someone like an european, ok, but not lose our religion. don' t put words on the prophet's mouth sws, he was preaching God's faith, i don' t think he wanted people to abandon it!!!!!!

As for the main subject, read this post again, I respect these people's choice, because, as I stated, faith is a personal matter. Besides, as I said to LeMask, faith and dogma are two separate things.
But if you think you're holding THE truth and are comfortable with it, good for you. But it's not for you to judge others for their choices.
Tell me, would you have been so agressive, had it been an article about people converting to Islam ?
Or is your truth absolute and above others ?

It's not my truth, it's GOD'S. you say u are open minded, but you are not. read the holy coran again that will teach you something if you are a muslim if not, read it just to know what u are talking about.

As for another matter, by best friend is a catholic and we never argued about religion. She understands me better than anyone else. and hey, i never tried to change her. but one thing i know, a muslim turning christian??? WRONG and so the coran and god say!!!!
Allah i3edik o safi
10 February 2007 21:10
chelhman, i understand that.
but when you say "i understand" or more, "i respect"... it have a meaning.

would you fight to protect the right to leave Islam for another religion or for no religion?

i wouldnt... i wont risk my life to protect this kind of freedom because i think that it's a negative thing. i wont risk anything for the right to make "mistakes" (in my opinion it's a mistake)...

so when i say i dont respect homosexuality or alcohol... it doesnt mean that i insult them on the streets or such... it means that if i had a legal, fair and civilized way to fight it,then i would...

but to come here to say "i respect that or this in the name of understanding or modernity or whetever..."...nah, this is BS...

and Chelhman, looks like your knowledge of Islam isnt like mine...
so, let me explain to you what i know (or what i think i know at least...)...

there was Judaism, christianism and then Islam... as Muslim, we recognize Christianity as a "primitive form of Islam"... it's not about superior race or anything...
it's just that it is part of Islam to think that the Bible (the base of Christianity) was modified...

so when a Muslim turns into a christian, there is no evolution... it's just a mistake.
we shouldnt be happy...

but when an atheist turns into a Christian (or a jew) we should be happy for him. he made a step in the right direction... but the final move would be to turn into a Muslim...

go it bro? Jesus is a Muslim prophet. one of the first people to live following the word of god...

if i had to give you an image, you have to believe in Jesus to be a Christian... and then you have to believe in the message of Jesus to be a Muslim...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2007 09:16 by LeMask.
c
11 February 2007 22:59
Izatis, LeMask,

Since you seem to be of the same mindset, this addresses the both of you.

Read this post again, this is not a comparative study of two religions. There is no hierarchy in religions, people inherit them through their geography and culture, if you were born in Asia, the chances are you would be a buddhist or a taoïst. It's much like your nationality, you don't get to choose who you are at birth.
So showing contempt for Christians because their dogma is in contradiction with Islam's fundamentals is like despising someone because of his nationality or race, it's bigotry.

What I am saying is that, in this case, people choosing to leave the muslim dogma deserve as much respect as someone choosing to enter it. But you have a superiority complex, you believe Islam is better, or as LeMask put it, the others are primitive forms of Islam.
The only thing primitive here is your mode of thinking. You take things literally, I posted a link to Ibn Rushd's work, it wouldn't hurt you to read it, his criticism spoke of people like you.

LeMask, the answer to your question is YES, I would defend these people's rights to leave Islam, because it's about freedom of choice, freedom to worship. If they choose to apply their faiths differently, then that right is theirs and not for you or any governing body to control or hinder.

Leaving aside those who convert to emigrate, the others do it because they're thirsty for spirituality, their faith is choking in today's muslim psyche. It's something that should spark an inner debate in Islam not attacks towards those people. It's like when running a company, if your staff keeps leaving for the company across the street, spitting on them from the window as they're leaving, doesn't help you. The question you should be asking yourself is "what does the other company offer, that I don't ?"
So to follow this metaphor, keep spitting on them, when the best and the brightest would have all gone, you'll be left with the janitor to discuss your server problems or your finances. Does that look to you like good governance ?

One more time, this is not a theology debate, it's about freedom of choice and religion. Respect that and as we say back home : koul wa7ed y diha f'rassou.
d
11 February 2007 23:43
Quote
chelhman
Izatis, LeMask,

Since you seem to be of the same mindset, this addresses the both of you.

Read this post again, this is not a comparative study of two religions. There is no hierarchy in religions, people inherit them through their geography and culture, if you were born in Asia, the chances are you would be a buddhist or a taoïst. It's much like your nationality, you don't get to choose who you are at birth.
So showing contempt for Christians because their dogma is in contradiction with Islam's fundamentals is like despising someone because of his nationality or race, it's bigotry.

What I am saying is that, in this case, people choosing to leave the muslim dogma deserve as much respect as someone choosing to enter it. But you have a superiority complex, you believe Islam is better, or as LeMask put it, the others are primitive forms of Islam.
The only thing primitive here is your mode of thinking. You take things literally, I posted a link to Ibn Rushd's work, it wouldn't hurt you to read it, his criticism spoke of people like you.

LeMask, the answer to your question is YES, I would defend these people's rights to leave Islam, because it's about freedom of choice, freedom to worship. If they choose to apply their faiths differently, then that right is theirs and not for you or any governing body to control or hinder.

Leaving aside those who convert to emigrate, the others do it because they're thirsty for spirituality, their faith is choking in today's muslim psyche. It's something that should spark an inner debate in Islam not attacks towards those people. It's like when running a company, if your staff keeps leaving for the company across the street, spitting on them from the window as they're leaving, doesn't help you. The question you should be asking yourself is "what does the other company offer, that I don't ?"
So to follow this metaphor, keep spitting on them, when the best and the brightest would have all gone, you'll be left with the janitor to discuss your server problems or your finances. Does that look to you like good governance ?

One more time, this is not a theology debate, it's about freedom of choice and religion. Respect that and as we say back home : koul wa7ed y diha f'rassou.


bla bla bla and bla bla bla...........
I read on one of the posts here a message on a woman defending a cretain huntington's ideas.
You probably read it too i guess.
respect has nothing to do with judging something wrong, that's where u are misleded.
I respect people and what they think though i can judge for myself if what they're doing is wrong. And judge here has nothing to do with spitting on someone, don' t misinterpret me here, it has to do with what i believe to be right or wrong, good and bad etc... this dichotomy of the ideas based on good and bad has always been and will always be and is a basis to islam ( and other religions for that matter).

I respect gay people and yet what they do is wrong. I respect christians and yet they worship a human being, i respect alcoholics and yet they're leading their lives to waste.
And don't you dare tell me i'm narrow-minded when u don' t even know me and read only what u want. Words have always been interpreted a way or another and from the beginning u interpret mine your way!!!!
My religion is the best and someone quitting it makes a mistake and that's my opinion, like it or not. as for your comparison with business??? total crap as usual. Many are just greedy or lost and don' t know what's best for them. Islam, when u follow it the right way, is best for everyone. and saying that something's wrong isn' t a disrespect, it's a viewpoint!!!! and hey, grow up will ya, not sharing your point of view isn' t a disrespect either. so leave me alone, worship my god the best i can, and believe that muslims turning christians are misleded.

And with all due respect, i'm sure i'm right on this as God said so and please do believe what u want and leave the others do the same!!!!! that, will prove u can show respect to others!!!!!


posted from a human being who is proud of what she is: a muslim and don' t care about your crap and your theories about islam being a trap or something of the kind!!!
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