Morocco # English board

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Ilhem2
Who said that the clash is not between religious nor between cevilisations but rather between people from the 21st century and people from the middle age ?

I know who said it, she's probably one of the most hated person on this forum but she's right. Everything she said is accurate but people are not ready to hear that.
Now, you can bring in the firing squad because I dared find some redeeming thoughts on that woman.

Hi Chelhman,


if only we had some advanced thinking people like her...we wan't be on the buttom of the list like now!!!.....too sad for us really......and may be too late as well!!!!....


take care

chelhman? excuse me dude, but i dont even want to make the difference between secularism and Atheism...

i dont care about what they think. i'm for independance. for me, a Muslim is a freeman, and he doesnt have to obbey the rules of anyone on this earth. because men dont deserve to have "power" (control on others lives).

i'm not going to play a dangerous game like with "democratic system" with non-believers... come on. they arent trust worthy. for me, the important value is independance.

so, in a same land (country or the whole planet) people have to find an organisation where the people who "think the same" gather and mind of their own bussiness.
a government for Muslims, for Jews and for Christians... i see no reason to see a Muslim intervene in Christian affairs or the opposite...

the interaction between the groups have to work following "treaties" like an autodefense treaty (if one gets attacked we all respond and such)...

and by the way,it's easy for a Christian to speak about secularism...
but it's not the case for a Muslim, we arent Muslims in the mosques only. we are Muslims 24h/24 7d/7...

we have a very complex life style, Islam is a life style. and once we talk about secularism, they say "be Muslim, but in your house only." ... sorry, but these guys are retards... i cant be Muslim in my house alone... there is a Muslim way to be in bussiness, there is a Muslim way in the house, in the work, in society, in war, in everything, and every aspect of life...

in fact, they are asking me to be less Muslim, or Muslim only when it comes to food or praying 5 times a day...

and they call it "Mordern Islam"... screw that. sorry dude. i'm not going to be half Muslim to please them. it's UP TO ME to decide. and if they dont like it. it's their problem.

two things to do, stop the un Islamic crap the Muslims are doing (jeez, we have problems, there is Muslims blowing each others heads and killing women and kids... and more...)

and then, we take care of these "secular Muslim" or "Muslims for laicity"...

dont buy the enemy propaganda... they are full of it. they will find ways to get you far from your religion so they can sell you beers and porn... stay strong.

site4everything, interesting story dude, but you didnt answer my question...

LeMask, still living with the koffar ?
Come talk to me when you've applied your senseless drivel to yourself.
In the meantime, why don't you open a book from time to time, you'll learn that secularism is not atheism.
Look up the Magna Carta, that's a good place to start your study.

eh chelhman, why are we living under one system? why we have to choose one government? one economic system? one president? why?

i wish i could choose who to follow. in fact, i dont worry about these "koffar"... i'm more worried about other stuff... like the system.
or other stuff like the capitalism, consommation society, the US imperialism and such...

and chelhman, secularism and atheism are the same for me... i dont want them. it's not what i want.

i know about the Magna Carta dude, thanks... good enough for them, but i want more.

i think i already told you about this. but remember that time when Christians, Jews and Muslims were living in peace in Jerusalem? it was under Muslim control. and it was a time of peace.
the most important thing was to respect the difference between the groups and to give them enough freedom to deal with their affairs.

why the jews were so eager to make Israel? because non-jews intervened in their bussiness... in Europe, in Africa and all over the world...

we have to learn to say "why you care?" and "mind of your own bussiness"...

LeMask, your view of the world is obviously based on religious lines of demarcation. It skews everything in your thinking. People aren't Christians, Jews or Muslims, there's more to life than faith.
As for the Magna Carta, it's only the beginning, I told you to start there, not confine yourself to that.

Secularism is actually something that has been advocated by the early muslims until the fanatics took over and pushed the politicized version of Islam that we have now.
Which is the version that you seem to have been spoonfed. Read the early essays of Ibn Rushd or Ibn Khaldoun.
The more I read you, the more I realize that the worst advocates for Islam are...muslims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2007 09:23 by chelhman.

chelhman, we need a difference somewhere...

i dont accept the skin color, nation and such...
so why not the beliefs? i cut the world into 4... Jews, Christians and Muslims and the others...
i dont care about the other groups, but if i could find a way to life in peace with the 2 others (Christians and jews) it would be great.

and chelhman, i dont think you are right on the second point. it wasnt early Muslims. it was the prophet. he installed the concept of "Choura", the concept of "Umma" and other stuff...

we didnt create the political class. but now, look at our countries, we have a capitalist class and a political class. we have nations... we are so far from the idea of Umma, we are so far from the brotherhood Islam was supposed to be. we are so far from the unification...

and Islam is now a symbol of lack of freedom, no respect toward women, terrorism and also poverty and lack of education...

so, whatever what we are doing now... it's not working. there is a huge problem. a real emergency.

and please stop... advocate for Islam? you must be kidding... am i an Islam seller? i dont sell cars and Corans you know? ... i dont care if they like it or not. they arent concerned.

LeMask, read again what you write and take a deep breath. You're still living in the middle ages, you still refer to the Prophet, to the Umma. Islam at the core is an evolutive faith like the other two.
Do I need to explain to you again that there is no Umma except in your head and the head of some delusional Muslims listening too much to Al Qardawi ?

Christianity has survived and thrived because it reformed itself.
Judaism is consolidating for a different reason, they feel constantly threatened, they are constantly "circling the wagons".
But Muslims do not want to get over their lost supremacy and keep dwelling on the victories of Salahdin. That was a long time ago, it's over, get over it.

Other civilisations have lived and died since then and you're still dwelling on a system that no longer exists because better systems have taken over.
Again people aren't just their faith, you get along with people because of a number of reasons, it's called "like-minded" people, they could be Jews, Christians or atheists.
Why would you absolutely need to be categorized ?


The subject here are Moroccan Christians, so let's stick to that, otherwise we'll fill another 4 pages of your usual zzabor.

chelhman, i oppose the idea of "nation"... it's not because it's old that it's retarded.
you have to tell yourself that you are free. that you dont have to do stuff you dont want to do.

and who is al quardawi? and what is this stupid smile? and the fact that there is some "delusional Muslims" who think there is an Umma, doesnt this make this Umma a reality?

and Christianity didnt reform itself, it gave up... now we have gay marriages and the traditionnal values are disapearing. you call this reform?

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Again people aren't just their faith, you get along with people because of a number of reasons, it's called "like-minded" people, they could be Jews, Christians or atheists. Why would you absolutely need to be categorized ?

it's exactly what i was talking about. monotheist (the 3 big religions) and the others... and of course, like there still some differences between these 3 groups, other "barriers" should be necessary. but just as a safety to grant independance.

and i'm sick of your weakness... you call that being open minded? you are a nationalist Muslim? for you "Morroco" is important? ... Morroco is the drawing of a man on a map for god sake. it's the least important thing in the world... only a stupid soldier working like a slave for a government would care about the frontiers...

someday, people like you will be sent to fight Algerian forces who think the same... and you will finish someday in front of god telling him why you killed your brothers for a red line on a map. i wish you good luck...

Hi LeMask,

About the nation thing, we've tried other systems, it didn't work. What you're describing is anarchy, it is applied right now in Waziristan. Google it, you'll see.

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and who is al quardawi? and what is this stupid smile?

Al Qardawi is one of the most influential 3alim, he features on most arab sat channels, I know you don't watch them but your imam probably does and the sermons often take after his speeches.
He does from time to time apply self-criticism but that's not what people retain, watch this :

[www.youtube.com]

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and the fact that there is some "delusional Muslims" who think there is an Umma, doesnt this make this Umma a reality?

Now we're getting into psychological disturbances, just because you think something is true, doesn't mean it is. Read a previous post about that, we've had this discussion before.

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and Christianity didnt reform itself, it gave up... now we have gay marriages and the traditionnal values are disapearing. you call this reform?

No, in my opinion, it reformed, it adapted to social realities. But it could only do so because it ceased to be a governing body...hence securalism
And one more thing, can't you understand that your values are not necessarily shared by others ?

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and i'm sick of your weakness... you call that being open minded?

Weakness ? You mean why I'm not a zealot...
I never said I was openminded, I'm actually very conservative, I'm extremely attached to our moroccan values, values of openness and tolerance that are threatened by the religious obscurantism channeled by satTVs from the Gulf.

That's that very tolerance that makes me accept these Moroccans choice to turn to Christianity if that's what they want. My first reaction is to talk to them, to understand why they chose that path, your reaction is to vilify them.
Moroccan values don't solely rely on religion, otherwise we would have disappeared a long time ago.
It's been molded by being crisscrossed by different religions, different cultures.
If we close ourselves, Morocco will no longer be Morocco.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2007 07:51 by chelhman.