Morocco # English board

Hi Sarah70

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but if you come next day to tell me we need reform here and those people has right to promote their behavior in public well m3andi mane goulak.

You automatically jump to extremes. I'm not saying we should promote homosexuality or adultery, I'm saying we're not implementing the scriptures litterally anymore. Which means we've evolved, our country has adapted its laws to fit the times.
We are not a theocracy, so the law of men applies not the law of God. It's a fact.

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what next promote and encourage our kids to invite their girl/boy friend home as one day benshamsi said it s better at least he is sure that his daughter boyfriend will not be violent with her incase their night turns out to be nasty he will be at her room door to protect her.

this is what i mean when i said the reform to produce empty muslim and we will continue to call ourselves muslim just to calm some of us.

Muslims adapt, Telquel doesn't represent Morocco, they're going too fast, but sooner or later Morocco will have to face its hypocrisies.
Women date, have sex before they wed, everybody knows that, just as everybody knows it is a huge hypocrisy that men can do anything they want before they marry and no one is calling them on that.

We can buy and drink alcohol in our country and yet it's forbidden by law to sell it to muslims. Nobody is going to stop you at Marjane's counter because you have a six packs of Heinekens.
I could go on but you get the idea.

The point is, we are not a theocracy, we are not governed by the law of God but the law of men, but since our leaders are afraid of people like you, they'd rather not say it, so they keep this schizophrenic charade going.
It wouldn't be so schizophrenic if they just said it out loud like we've been saying here : we are not a theocracy and we are never going to be, Moroccans do no want that, you're faith is yours, the state does not interfer just as your faith should not interfer in the state.
Only a very few lunatics following the Yassines preach the inept notion of going full throttle towards an islamist model.
But maybe I'm out of line, you seem to like Nadia Yassine's speeches.

salam alaykum


karim

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I wish you are the only single one. Unfortubatly it is not the case

same here, but at least i don t loose hope for your case .you will be ok don t worry

chelhman...
i dont trust you dude...

there is plenty of people who agree with Sarah70 and these people are called muslims... OBVIOUSLY, and they are my brothers and sisters...
but if you arent... if you want to see muslim people living like godless people (in a laic system)... if you think that the practice of Islam is "bad for bussiness" or "not modern"...

then i call it lack of knowledge or lack of faith...

once again, i dont think it's a crime.

but dont you see? we ARE different, we dont think the same as you do. why should we be leaving together and living the same way?
why are you trying to force people together even when they dont agree on the basics?

can you stop creating conflicts? because it's really annoying.

i cant agree with you? great, who cares? i have plenty of muslims in the world to agree with me.

and believe me, i wont have the time in my lifetime to know and learn from them all... so why should i care about you?

why am i forced to live with you? why? because you are morrocan? ... it's non-sense... it's DUMB.

if i meet someone who does agree with me, i will make arrangements with him, and live my life as i want with the people who want to live it the same way as me.

and those who arent like me, i dont need to control their lives... go ahead. be a man, take your responsability, and make your own system... it's really none of my bussiness, you are a foreigner to me after all. i give your freedom, you give me mine.

let me give you a little exemple:
you have a house with 6 rooms...

and you have 12 people... what do you do? force people to live in these rooms randomly? just because they were standing next to the door of a room forces them to share it?

use your head... put a dude believing in god with an atheist and it will be hell in the whole house.

salam alaykum

chelhmen

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[b
so the law of men applies not the law of God[/b]]

interesting ,well i should think about it here.

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hypocrisies

isn t what we call respecting the other privacy ,i don t care what others do at their private corner.

well i need to think about this too now.

if we throw every thing is in Coran and sunna here why you insist on calling us muslim.you are creating a christian prototype they don t practice anything from their religion at they keep considering them self christian.

salam alaykum

chelhmen

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[b
so the law of men applies not the law of God[/b]]

interesting ,well i should think about it here.

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hypocrisies

isn t what we call respecting the other privacy ,i don t care what others do at their private corner.

well i need to think about this too now.

if we throw every thing is in Coran and sunna here why you insist on calling us muslim.you are creating
a christian prototype they don t practice anything from their religion at they keep considering them self christian.

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I'm out of line, you seem to like Nadia Yassine's speeches.

beleive it or not i never read or listen to her speech so basicaly i have no idea what talks about.

Sarah70
You are right on every point you mention. You answered all the questions asked without changing or escaping the topic. Brillant and a convinced muslim.
In you eyes we are not muslims. We are doing everything to make our religion look bad.
You know better Islam. I am mistaking
Good luck and peace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2006 01:15 by Krim.

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sarah70
if we throw every thing is in Coran and sunna here why you insist on calling us muslim.you are creating
a christian prototype they don t practice anything from their religion at they keep considering them self christian.

I'm going to shoot myself pretty soon if we keep doing this

Again, NODODY is telling you to throw away your beliefs or the Quran or the Sunna or whatever, but they have NOTHING to do with social reforms or political reforms.
Be all that you want to be but don't expect everybody to follow you and don't expect the state to validate your beliefs. That system is outdated, it's obsolete, open your eyes, that's why muslims countries are lagging behind.
A separation of religion and state is not a christian idea, it's a human concept.
The problem is, in our faith, no leader has the adequat people to do it, because for the last 40 years, our leaders did not invest in education, now they all have populations with a high rate of illiteracy and therefore not able to digest the secular concept beyond the possible loss of islamic values, when actually there is so much more to gain from secularism.

Religion is not the only moral compass available, public servants in the West are generally not thiefs because of the fear of law but also the idea that it's against the common good or the general interest. Their conscience dictates that if they steal, the consequence on the fabric of society is far more damaging than the little benefit they might get from it. It's imprinted in their psyche, they don't even think about it anymore.

Now, how come in rigid muslim countries like Iran, corruption is rampant ?

But let me rephrase again :
I am not against islam, I am not attacking the faith, I am not telling you to abandon the Quran or the Sunna or the hijab or whatever it is you're wearing.
What I am saying is that they are not everything, there is life and ideas beyond that, there is a whole world beyond that, some of it might derive from religion but not everything.

sarah70,

could plz answer this question: if Islam is the right religion and Muslims are the right people for you why are you living in non Muslim country? why didn’t you change Morocco with a Muslim country where you can practice the religion freely? Let’s say Saudi Arabia …it’s a country governed 100% under Islamic rules ….it maches very well your expectations...instead you are living in the USA...country of "Kufar"...

Krim if you look carefully, chelhman is opposed to an arab-islamic influence...

but when it's a laic occidental influence, he is all open...

you have people having the same culture as you, and you deny their influence...

and in the other hand, you have people who dont like you, who dont understand, who dont want to understand you, who are potential enemies, who attacked you in the past... and you accept their influence...

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LeMask
Krim if you look carefully, chelhman is opposed to an arab-islamic influence...

No, Chelhman is opposed to an exclusive arab-islamic influence, especially the one being forwarded these last few years. Our country is a subtle mix of berber/jewish/arab influences, it's never been just one thing.
Now what some people are trying to do, is to steer us away from that and instill the idea that we've always been solely a muslim arab country.
Just look at our garments, our music, our poetry, I don't see any unicity in there.

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LeMask
Krim if you look carefully, chelhman is opposed to an arab-islamic influence...

but when it's a laic occidental influence, he is all open...

you have people having the same culture as you, and you deny their influence...

and in the other hand, you have people who dont like you, who dont understand, who dont want to understand you, who are potential enemies, who attacked you in the past... and you accept their influence...

Le Mask
I have been following many discussions and reading chelhman. I do not think that he is trying to deny the influence of any culture. However, if you see positive aspect in the culture of your ennemies which you can use to improve the life of your people. Why not ?
The historical mistake was that the muslims did not keep their eyes open on others to learn and import knowledge. They kept living in their religious confinement for at least 500 years, cultivating arrogance and ignorance and finally become so weak allowing the others to come and colonize. This is the reality.
In fact the ennemis were among us, the so called oulamas who did make people think that the only source of knowledge is the Coran.Please do not misunderstand, Coran is a great text with an historical impact.

salam alaykum

ilham

listen here i leave morocco bcoz i was discrimination
they challenge my faith i had to choose either my career or my faith they don t give more choices.

i live in western country it is my second country i respect and have high esteem for everything and everybody why i have to impose my faith to them since they ARE NOT mulsim they respect my religion i have never being discriminated from a job bcoz i wear hijab you know the low here is very severe against ethnic profiling when we send resume the company has not right to ask for the picture within the resume that against the low,by the way i don t live in usa.
i give you ex my relation with my boss and colleagues ( Christians jew Muslim Buddhist....male female ) is amazing and cool i am teasing them all the time they do the same (while working of course the priority is the get the job done on time) when we are going out to eat they check if the place has stuff that i can eat (hallal ,veggie ,fish..etc) without even asking them i used to live in a building with most couple are gays so what....
i am not hypocrite ilham i respect their life style as i said they are not muslim why i have promote my religion. with high tech tools the islam is spreading by itself it does not need people .

as i said before i am willing to go an extra mille for where i live.

sarah70, again sorry to barge in, in your conversation with Ilhem2, but you just praised an open society with multiple faiths and gays but somehow you don't want that in our country, you want a strict muslim country where you can go on vacation. Sort of theme park where you can go but don't really live there.
Correct me if I missed something.

salam alaykum

chelhman

morocco is a muslim country 80% are muslim we have our islamic value so read me again i am not here to change the facts at any side.

it is differnce between respecting the other choices and agree ,they do the same they may not like islam but they respect my choice and my religion i treat them with the same respect even i don t agree with them in something. which is normal behavior.

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you want a strict muslim country where you can go on vacation

chelhman aren t you MRE or i am wrong.

chelhman, gays werent welcome in our country. there was a little tolerance, they had to live hidden.
they werent hunted... they were living their lives in peace in the secrecy of their homes.

and we heterosexual do exactly the same, we dont need to expose our sexual lives in the society.

so dont scream injustice.

and you are right chelhman, i'm maybe mistaking.
you are not as i said.

but remember one thing. we are today in a situation where you have to choose. you can have only one door open at the same time.

exemple:
Iran and USA use only one door, you close the door of USA, you open the door of Iran.
you make buddy buddy with Iran, USA jumps on you at the first occasion.

simple enough?
we are in a situation where you have to choose a side...

and if they force me to choose a side, i will take the Islamists... i can deal with extremism. i'm not affraid.
but i wont deal with laics and godless people... i dont like these guys.

i prefer to try to teach an open Islam to an angry brother with a barb rather than to explain the concept of "religion is good for you" to an atheist...

put this in your head, i'm not neutral... i have a side. and my side is the side of god. hopefully for a lot of people, god isnt here to tell me exactly what to do, so i try to do stuff a god asking for a good behavior toward humans would like to see...

it's how i practice my faith.

and i think that homosexuality isnt a good thing, so i fight it with the means i see as correct.
right now i use indifference... i try to dont deal with gay people... is it a crime?

we have to define our concepts... and work together.

alone we wont go very far...

salam alaykum

lemask

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i prefer to try to teach an open Islam to an angry brother with a barb rather than to explain the concept of "religion is good for you" to an atheist...
put this in your head, i'm not neutral... i have a side. and my side is the side of god. hopefully for a lot of people, god isnt here to tell me exactly what to do, so i try to do stuff a god asking for a good behavior toward humans would like to see...

i would not say better

there is no such neutral side in this days .for God sake chelhmen just drop your binary 1 or 0 and nuance speech here.

sarah70,

Yes I'm MRE, so I'm coherent with myself, I live in a progressive society and I wish the same for my country. But you live in a progressive society and wish a conservative system to yours. You talk about people respecting you, but would you agree if, let's say, some christians decide they want a catholic procession in Casablanca or Jews to have one jewish legal holiday, after all, they've been Moroccans since the country has been defined.

In Belgium where I live, the municipalities go out of their way to provide facilities for 3ïd al Adha (reserved slaughterhouses, sanitary conditions...), it costs a lot of money to the taxpayers, can you imagine doing that in Morocco ?

Let's push it even further :
A lot of Moroccans are converted to Christianity, for whatever reason, I'm not debatting the merits of it, but if they decide as moroccan citizens that they would like a corner of their own to pray, a little church, would you agree with it ?
You see, tolerance goes both ways, you enjoy the respect of your colleagues but would you grant the same courtesy in our country to a gay colleague for instance ?

I know I'm being provocative, but I'm titillating the brink of things, that's how you advance, otherwise you keep exploring the same corners over and over again, you become intellectually static.

salam alaykum

chelhman

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Again, NODODY is telling you to throw away your beliefs or the Quran or the Sunna or whatever, but they have NOTHING to do with social reforms or political reforms.

oh really how you explain been discriminated from job that has nothing to do with halal or haram it was pure technical just bcoz of wearing hijab .

don t tell me it is company policy since when in democratic conception the law allows such discriminatory policy that has nothing with the business process. it is only about big cheese ideology they can not support seeing a religion people in their company.

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LeMask
but remember one thing. we are today in a situation where you have to choose. you can have only one door open at the same time.

That sums up why we can't agree on anything, Morocco is the offspring of both civilizations, we cannot choose, it'll be killing part of what we are. Morocco isn't Morocco without its northern western influence.

The idea of a choice is an intellectual fallacy being advanced by islamists, we've maintained a balance which made our cultural wealth for centuries, we're not going to change that. We've always drunk at both wells and thrived doing so. Isolate yourself if you want but don't try to sell us the idea that we have to look eastwards and only eastwards.

I was trying to give a link on critical thinking but somehow it does not work.
My PC rejected the task and show a message. Do not try again you are wasting your time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2006 04:20 by Krim.

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sarah70
oh really how you explain been discriminated from job that has nothing to do with halal or haram it was pure technical just bcoz of wearing hijab .

don t tell me it is company policy since when in democratic conception the law allows such discriminatory policy that has nothing with the business process. it is only about big cheese ideology they can not support seeing a religion people in their company.

Everybody already told you here how sorry they felt about your case but don't generalize, there are more hijabs in the workplace in Morocco than they are women not wearing them.

I can also tell about the opposite, there were a few articles in the moroccan press about female teachers being threatened because they didn't wear a hijab in the classes. For fear for their lives some women yielded and are now wearing them, some decided not to and are constantly accompanied by their brothers and husbands for protection.
So please, let's not start counting points or this debate will never raise to an interesting level.

salam alaykum

chelhman

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christians decide they want a catholic procession in Casablanca or Jews to have one jewish legal holiday, after all, they've been Moroccans since the country has been defined.

what is wrong with that if they would like to have church no problem but don t tell for 10 000 people we are going to build 1000 church we should be logic here other wise it will be promoting something the purpose of building church here bcoz they have no place or not enough place to worship .as long as we stick to the purpose of the act.
for holliday i used to work in company whith moroccan jew colleague they used to take their paid vacation on their religion like Hanukah etc..

i opened my eyes in a neighborhood mostly were jew and french foreigner i never forget the old lonely jew lady who used to come to chitchat whole afternoon with my grand mother why people are making it big deal here may be we don t use to interact with french neighbor that much but moroccan jews i never see it as odd thing.

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sarah70
i opened my eyes in a neighborhood mostly were jew and french foreigner i never forget the old lonely jew lady who used to come to chitchat whole afternoon with my grand mother why people are making it big deal here may be we don t use to interact with french neighbor that much but moroccan jews i never see it as odd thing.

Doesn't transpire from your writings, Quran this, Sunna that, Prophet this...etc, I thought you grew up in a zaouia

salam alaykum


chelhman

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Doesn't transpire from your writings, Quran this, Sunna that, Prophet this...etc, I thought you grew up in a zaouia

it happened accidentally that most places (we used to move every 3 years) our neighbors are non muslim don t worry my family has not material wealth.
i am acquainted to your surprise since the 1 fist comment i get from my sisters the day they see me wearing hijab ,asking my grand mother 'tell me grandma did someone just deliver a pack to our home ,and they look at me ARE YOU CRAZY why are you all wrapped up" it goes back to 17 years ago and i couldn't t stop myself laughing when i remember that .

so your speech and logics i used to have as my daily chitchat with my whole family they just don t get it .from where my decision came ,but the hard one was my dad position it was no way i wear it by hook or by crook i have to remove he used exactly your logic but for him he tough he was protecting me against the society reject .i never say no to him and it was the first time i did and finally he made a deal with me.

salam alaykum


chelhman

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Doesn't transpire from your writings, Quran this, Sunna that, Prophet this...etc, I thought you grew up in a zaouia

it happened accidentally that most places (we used to move every 3 years) our neighbors are non muslim don t worry my family has not material wealth.
i am acquainted to your surprise since the 1 fist comment i get from my sisters the day they see me wearing hijab ,asking my grand mother 'tell me grandma did someone just deliver a pack to our home ,and they look at me ARE YOU CRAZY why are you all wrapped up" it goes back to 17 years ago and i couldn't t stop myself laughing when i remember that .

so your speech and logics i used to have as my daily chitchat with my whole family they just don t get it .from where my decision came ,but the hard one was my dad position it was no way i wear it by hook or by crook i have to remove he used exactly your logic but for him he tough he was protecting me against the society reject .i never say no to him and it was the first time i did and finally he made a deal with me.

i wish if i did spend some time in zaouia .it is inspring for wisdom

salam alaykum


chelhman

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Doesn't transpire from your writings, Quran this, Sunna that, Prophet this...etc, I thought you grew up in a zaouia

i wish if i did spend some times in zaouia ,it is inpiring place for wisdom.but they may not accept ladies there

sarah70, again sister, I told you it's not the garment I have a problem with, it's the ideology that comes with it. I'm used to women wearing addal in the Souss village where my parents are from, you can only see their eyes, but I love the charm of those eyes.
The hijab is an import, an ugly one at that.

Instead of a zaouia, try what Ilhem2 suggested, a few years in Saudia Arabia, that way you can feel what a wonderful world it would be under a strict arab-muslim orthodox system. I'm serious here, there are plenty of jobs available, it's an economy opening to women in the workplace, you'll easily find a job and you could tell us if it's really what you wish for our country.


Note : leave your driving licence, you won't need it there, and take some DVDs with you, movie theaters are forbidden, there are none

salam alaykum


chelhman

take it just simple as it is ,i choose to wear hijab ,what hijab is about it is suit either skirt or pant with a long little wide jacket you can see that everyday at any store display right? the difference is the covering the head and the neck .why u keep saying that is imported ,the most peace are imported from the west may be, or in morocco we wear the moroccan beautiful jellaba and we cover the head so 100% moroccan.

for living Saudi, it is just sound weird coming from you ,you are the one believing moroccans should have right to live the life style they choose INSIDE THEIR COUNTRY and don t excluding or expatriate anyone abroad bcoz he has such hope or wish .if i prefer to study in zaouia that bcoz it is moroccan if i choose to work in multinational in my country my choice should be respected and none needs to ask to go to Saudi to work with same multinational i trust your intelligence here chelhman i am sure u get my msg

Hi all,

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sarah70
salam alaykum

ilham

listen here i leave morocco bcoz i was discrimination
they challenge my faith i had to choose either my career or my faith they don t give more choices.

i live in western country it is my second country i respect and have high esteem for everything and everybody why i have to impose my faith to them since they ARE NOT mulsim they respect my religion i have never being discriminated from a job bcoz i wear hijab you know the low here is very severe against ethnic profiling when we send resume the company has not right to ask for the picture within the resume that against the low,by the way i don t live in usa.
i give you ex my relation with my boss and colleagues ( Christians jew Muslim Buddhist....male female ) is amazing and cool i am teasing them all the time they do the same (while working of course the priority is the get the job done on time) when we are going out to eat they check if the place has stuff that i can eat (hallal ,veggie ,fish..etc) without even asking them i used to live in a building with most couple are gays so what....
i am not hypocrite ilham i respect their life style as i said they are not muslim why i have promote my religion. with high tech tools the islam is spreading by itself it does not need people .

as i said before i am willing to go an extra mille for where i live.

Sarah70,

See you’ve got more respect and esteem in a no Islamic country …this is the best proof that the religion must not be always behind good government or good people…..the religion is and still a choice and a private one….there are so many great places to live in where the religion is not the most important thing.....

actually (from your history ) you could be great example for being Muslim and open minded in the same time…that’s real morocco … if we wanna progress we need to change our way to consider things …this stuff with religion didn’t work….. we need something concretely different to change the situation in our country and to help people get out of the poverty….we particularly must work with the western countries that’s why we should find a middle way to gain their trust and meanwhile to maintain our traditions….this not gonna happen if the whole moroccan women are wearing head scarf.... keeping our tradtions and opening to the new world is not possible Japan and Korea chieved great development even they still are traditional countries …

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chelhman
Doesn't transpire from your writings, Quran this, Sunna that, Prophet this...etc, I thought you grew up in a zaouia

chelhman,

I was gonna say the same...it's really pity....people growing up in our tolerant society but claiming a conservative Islamic governement....of her history I was expecting from her more acceptance to a mixed society...i'm really losing hope....