Morocco # English board

Why is it that some of us, immigrants, are asking host countries for more rights than we had or would’ve ever had in our country?
Why is it that some go as far as wanting these host countries to change to our way of life instead of us integrating and embracing theirs?
Why is it that no matter how much our life improves by living in the west, we still, always managed to criticize the western world and our host countries? Wouldn’t it be more logical, that we just leave, and go back to where we came from?
Do these countries really have an obligation to host us? Yeah, some of them did colonize us and caused us lots of harm, and may be they owe us something; But Belgium, Italy, Sweden or Norway for example never colonized Morocco? Yet many call them koffar and such.
I’m so against France law prohibiting girls from wearing headscarves at schools, and so against tapping the telephone lines of Muslims in Europe and the US after 9/11, but on the other hand, if I’m in my house and you’re a guest spending some days with us, or want me to give you a room to live with my family, I have the right to ask you to adopt some of my way of life, don’t you? I’m not talking about religion here.

This is just for the sake of debate. These are not my views, but some questions I always debate in my head, may be I shouldn’t. Things that usually begins with words like what if, or why this and not that, why him/her and not me. And so many other questions that really lives with us as we pursue our lives on the other side of the ocean, and chase our dreams of better tomorrow.
Salam,
Almot

"Why is it that some of us, immigrants, are asking host countries for more rights than we had or would’ve ever had in our country?
Why is it that some go as far as wanting these host countries to change to our way of life instead of us integrating and embracing theirs?
Why is it that no matter how much our life improves by living in the west, we still, always managed to criticize the western world and our host countries? Wouldn’t it be more logical, that we just leave, and go back to where we came from?
Do these countries really have an obligation to host us? Yeah, some of them did colonize us and caused us lots of harm, and may be they owe us something; But Belgium, Italy, Sweden or Norway for example never colonized Morocco? Yet many call them koffar and such"

I have actually been arguing those points with some friends to prove the one-sided view they had, so I sort of agree with the above. Imagine jews or christians wanting to build new synagogues or churches in every district of any big city in Morocco because they feel they should have a place to worship, imagine also that they would want the right to hold processions on any Casablanca street for instance on catholic holidays...etc, would Moroccans go along with that ? I doubt it.



"I’m so against France law prohibiting girls from wearing headscarves at schools"

Ok, I know I'm going to get hammered on this one but hear me out before you jump on your keyboards, people : I was for the prohibition of religious attributes at schools. Being born and schooled in France, I understood the french point of view, historically shools have been "sacred" ground, no religion was allowed, the republic gave a lot blood and pain for that one, so when muslims, especially, were starting to bend that rule by wearing scarfs, I thought it was legitimate to reiterate that rule. Schools of the republic have always been considered temples of knowledge not of belief. Muslims took it out of historical context and made it a racist thing which it wasn't. Granted once the debate reached the media, it was twisted and battle lines were drawn which gave way to all sorts of manipulations on both sides. Ok, now hammer away !


"and so against tapping the telephone lines of Muslims in Europe and the US after 9/11, but on the other hand, if I’m in my house and you’re a guest spending some days with us, or want me to give you a room to live with my family, I have the right to ask you to adopt some of my way of life, don’t you? I’m not talking about religion here."


I'd disagree on this one, it's a matter of civil liberties, no one should be allowed to listen in without a court order whatever the colour of my skin or my religion.

But this is definitely an interesting post, it opens all sorts of scenarios. I hope it doesn't get acrimonious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2006 03:40 by chelhman.

Are you talking about the new immigration debate in the US right now ?

I do personally think that immigration is a matter of priviledge rather than a right. Like when people are being denied visas, it is not a right to have a visa ! we tend to forget that

I think we do not have to be a decision maker, since we are a "guest" but nowadays, third worlds countries are being dictated how to run their internal affairs by the giants, so the equilibrium is that these same giants are being trapped in their idealistic law, where immigrants have to say things and can change them.

human nature is messed up !

Dear Almot
I agree with you on many points but I have to tell you that I am thankfull to the french for creating schools in Morocco giving me a chance to be able to sit and use this computer.

Dear friends, chelhman, l9bi7 and krim,
While those were just some of my thoughts and not believes, I’ll try to address some.
Chelhman, may be I chould’ve put a period and started another phrase after, and so against tapping the telephone lines of Muslims in Europe and the US after 9/11, and I don’t think we disagree on that.
Non my friend I9bi7, I’m not talking about the talks about immigration in the US and the “undocumented” people. It’s more in general.
I know krim that the French built schools, but some might dispute at what cost and how many people are there who can say what you said. This gives me an idea for another interesting post: THE French Occupation in North Africa, or just in morocco, this could bring some more lights and may be a good debate to our forum, any volunteer to start it?
Salam all,
Almot

Dear Almot,

I did get that you were against phone tapping but I was just replying in the context of your post, trying to place oneself on the other side of the debate. But on phone tapping, I can't bring myself to play devil's advocate. Again, your post is an interesting approach, I've always loved the "what if" in trying to deal with an issue.

Let me jump in here!
Immigrants go through stages of adjutments so as not to call them integration! The nature of the immigrant is based on criticism of the here and attraction by the " there"; hence the move from place A to place B. the factors are as plural as the cells in our blood...it's in our genes to express comfort as well as discomfort with places, ppl, things,...Laws. And here I'd like to stop my generalisations and yes, get a bit to specifics!

I am a proud moroccan very thankful for my host country and will always be. I came to look at the U.S, in this case, as the Land that's allowing me to prosper intellectually and otherwise! However, I wouldn't be serving my host country well if I took a backseat and agreed robotically with policies that are not, to my understanding, respectful of the very principles that Attracted me to leave and come here! Those pulling factors so many of us idealised, once they are broken, it's only normal for us to react and express our discomfort, to say the least, fot that's how we contribute to the strength of the host country for that's become our duty towards our host country.e.g You want to read my blog/ listen to my phone conversations, be my GUEST but ask me first or ask the authority that's PROTECTING us ALL! And, dear Almot, I agree with your analogy but the flip side to that is don't invite me to your house and treat me badlly, for lack of a better word! I know You won't
We are indeed changing our status everyday Financially, socially, intellectually...and whether we like it or not we are part of the political arena...Paying taxes, voting... and thinking about the environment and... these are stages that we paved step by step to become "FULL" citizens deserving of rights; yet liable to leagal punishment should we err!..the ultimate stage: Pleading allegiance to the constitution of the land is a burden that we accept and that entails UNderstanding the law of the LAND and protecting it by asking to understand, defending it and respecting it as Citizens not just Immigarants!



It's our obligation to continually improve ourselves as sane thinkers and positively active social beings to be models for the immigrants to come. After all the North(Coloniser) to South( colonised) Movement is only reversed and for good reasons: Imperialist movements in the past are a Form of Immigration to Stay competitive! Take Africa as an Example: In no particular historical order, The FRENCH, The Spanish, Portuguese, The Dutch...moved in for Political, economical..reasons...Africa was a stage for the supreme powers to set the rules for years to come....And mind you, There's plenty of written texts describing the Virgin Continent and the Primitive inhabitants as savages that needed to be domesticated! THe Colonizer had nothing but criticism and indeed it proved to be both positive and negative! Language, Religion, Laws..were either changed or imposed;positive!(?)! Cultures/ rituals/ppl were Raped...negative!(?)

Decades later, the Southerners are moving up North! Hispanics are moving up to North America, Africans are moving up to Europe...the Immigrants that are Equipped with the language, the adequate religious discourse, political wit..are welcome and seem to adjust and at times contribute to the diversity of the host country! That's healthy criticism.

THe unhealthy criticism is the one coming from fanatics and ignorant lazy oportunists who are in for the ride not doing the work; yet claiming rights and change... Those need to shut up and have no right to criticism whatsoever! I am not being hard on this faction of immigrants, but I feel cheated as a Law abiding immigrant/citizen when another immigrant is opposed to all sorts of adjustment and destroying the image I and millions like me have been trying to set for ourselves.

In a nutshell(,immigrants have rights but before earning those, they have obligations! I feel I have fullfilled mine and I know many of you have, we deserve our rights to privacy and respect as human beings protected by the law of the Land!

your reactions
Salam/peace
Yani

Salam Yani,
What you have said makes a sense, and no I’m not contradicting any of what I said before, all along, I said that those were thoughts and not believes. I have to say that, like you, I feel I’m in huge dept to my host country who allowed me to achieve what I couldn’t otherwise in my country. I feel an obligation to repay some of what I’d received, I think of that every time I take a drive with my kids or say what I want with no fear whatsoever.
When I mentioned the excessive demands sometimes by some immigrants, I was talking more about the portion that immigrates to these countries and is satisfied to live on welfare and public help for instance. I have tremendous respect for the Mexican immigrants who are asking to be legalized; they are some of the most hard working and dedicated people I’ve ever seen. I’m sure there are Moroccans in the US and in Europe who are just as, if not more hardworking to better themselves.
Look at the way we dealt with our brothers and sisters from Africa who were guests in our country and were trying to cross to Europe. Just last night, if any of you watch PBS, they had a piece about that, not the best for our country, and not one that reflects tolerance and openness. The man speaking for the Moroccan Gov in this instance, designated by M6 himself, Khalid Zerwali, if I remember the name well, could’ve used that opportunity to polish a bit the sour marks our reaction to our brothers in Africa had left. The video could be watched here: [www.pbs.org]

Yani, you said: immigrants have rights but before earning those, they have obligations!, and man, that says it all. No one should tap your phone; discriminate against you and just for drama sake, burn a cross in your front yard. But no one should forget that we’re the ones who should adjust to the way of life in our host countries, it just makes a sense. I’m amazed when I see some preaching in the streets of London to big crowds what they could never preach in their own countries, would any Arab/Muslim capital allow a priest or Rabi do that on their cities?
And my friend Yani, you know that what I said about the invitation in my house was just, “lidarourati achiaar” to the ones who do not read Arabic it’s a phrase many poets in the old days used to hide behind when their poetry stray away from the laws or the grammar limits. It’s just to add little color to the post, which by the way is going just like I prayed it would, to get us to talk about thing that many like to bypass.
My dear friend, you will be at your home, when you come and visit us, they’re will be nothing but love and family atmosphere to receive you, there will be hlib we’tmer, atay w’ghriyba, and on the background some andaloussi music, and that just at the door..lol, BUT NO SMOKING INSIDE!!!!just kidding
I like this paragraph from chelhman reply above:
I have actually been arguing those points with some friends to prove the one-sided view they had, so I sort of agree with the above. Imagine Jews or Christians wanting to build new synagogues or churches in every district of any big city in Morocco because they feel they should have a place to worship, imagine also that they would want the right to hold processions on any Casablanca street for instance on catholic holidays...etc, would Moroccans go along with that ? I doubt it.
I can’t help but finish with a phrase many in the US say these days: What would Jesus do?
Salam all,
Almot



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2006 11:11 by almotanabi.

Thanks almot, of course I understand your exapmle about how you would treat people... and it's only fitting that you expect a high level of respect and manners shown to you in your home...thansk for the refreshing virtual invitation by the way, really nice! Andaloussi is my cup of tea, too!
always nice to exchange ideas and learn from your posts. And of course, Chelhman makes a valid point that reflects the lack of realism and understanding. Mr. Krim always mentions education and I join him as well. We need more and more of it for that's the tool to Really understand ourselves and our situation, and ultimately will allow us to Understand /criticise/ accept others whether in our country or host contries.
Yani

Just for the sake of debat dear Almot



Cleaving the movement : the fiction of good and bad immigrants
Submitted by liza on 24 April, 2006 - 13:00.
Activism | Civil Rights | Culture | Economics | Immigration | Justice | Law | Politics | World Economy

One thing that I've found unsettling, though, in listening to coverage about the protests thusfar, is this "good immigrant/bad immigrant" rhetoric that's present in what some people are saying, protesters and organizers alike. This morning, while listening to NPR, I heard one woman speak about how Latino immigrants aren't doing anything to harm this country, that they "love America" and just want to become good, hard-working Americans. Then I heard one organizer, speaking at one of the rallies, say something like this: "Nineteen people hijacked planes and participated in the 9/11 attacks, and not one of them were named Gonzales, Rodriguez, or Santiago. But you can bet that many of the people dying serving their country in Iraq are named Gonzales, Rodriguez, and Santiago" so on and so forth.

I understand that much of this is in response to the whole immigration debate getting wrapped up in worries about "national security" - how the specter of terrorism seems to make allowances for all manner of discrimination, racism and xenophobia, and how countless immigrants are nonsensically made to suffer because of it. However, it definitely seems like a very bad, very problematic move to buy into this sort of dichotomy that pits "good" immigrants or "good" brown folks (here, Latinos) against "bad" ones (apparently people of Arab or Middle Eastern descent - because, you know, the actions of individuals become the responsibility, the fault, the burden of their entire race and religion.) Latinos, like all other immigrants to the United States, deserve to be treated with respect and dignity and are entitled to certain rights and protections because they are human beings, not because they're good, flag-waving*, American-loving immigrants. No one is illegal, no matter whether your name is Juan or Mohammed, Gonzales or Atta.

— AngryBrownButch | no one is illegal

Hi Almot,

Been re-reading your post, and I thought of a few things :

About the fact that some immigrants are expecting the host countries to accommodate their way of life : it's a recent trend and it looks more specific to muslims, at least in Europe. Maybe it's the political climate of the last decade, muslims have an old axe to grind with the west in general (colonialism and such), and it translates into less patience towards the host. The whole process is also envigorated by the 2nd and 3rd generation who are no longer immigrants but are still treated as such in European countries.
I'm beginning to think that the old model which cut off the 2nd generation from its roots, giving birth to a 3rd one more secure in its identity and rediscovering their origins with their grand-parents, was a better model, a harsher one perhaps but producing more balanced people, benefiting the host and the home country.
The economies have changed as well which doesn't make things any easier, the host countries are less hospitable, scarcity is the mother of intolerance, economically speaking.

As far we, Moroccans, are concerned, I'm curious to see how we will react in the next decade when we become host countries as well. I see more and more africans in Morocco for instance, we used to be a country of transit to Europe, but the more Europe will fortify its borders and toughen its laws and the more prosperous Morocco will become, the more of our southern friends will come to stay. There are already some of them who came to study but settled for good. Last summer, I spoke to a couple from Cameroun leaving near my parents, the woman was holding a child, he was born in Casablanca, which means the second generation is already on its way.
Spain, Italy went through the same process, from nations of emigrates, they became nations of immigration, it went ok but with a lot of help from E.U budgets.
In Morocco, if no policy is designed now, that's a boomerang that's going to hurt.

And so far chelhman, my friend, I’m no proud at all of the way we handled and treated our brothers from Africa. I was never proud of that even when I lived in Morocco long time ago. Do I think Moroccan society is racist, NO, but do I think racism is alive and well chez nous? absolutely..I’ve seen it. I worked in a field where it was easy to see.
I’ll finish by saying something krim always repeats, education, education, education.
Salam,
Almot

Hi my friend

I do honour your opinion,everybody has their own views .according to me when we are living in western countries,we dont owe them anything,because its due to us they benefit a lot .They get from us Tax ,sharp and intelligent brains and money from student.Lets take example that the majoirty of people who are highly qualified and educated try to come here either because they wanted to live a better life that they deserve, or because they are not getting appropriate amount of money compared to their education.so america is getting all sharp brains from all over the world so if these people demand something in return i dont think so that is wrong at all. but these are purely my views and everybody is entitled to theirs.
Thanks all

muslima27 said :

"I do honour your opinion,everybody has their own views.according to me when we are living in western countries, we dont owe them anything, because its due to us they benefit a lot.They get from us Tax,sharp and intelligent and money from student.Lets take example that the majoirty of people who are highly qualified and educated try to come here either because they wanted to live a better life that they deserve, or because they are not getting appropriate amount of money compared to their education.so america is getting all sharp brains from all over the world so if these people demand something in return i dont think so that is wrong at all. but these are purely my views and everybody is entitled to theirs"



I agree on brain drain and taxes, "no taxation without representation" right ? but what about reciprocity ? Are some immigrant communities not excessive in their demands ? Take this example, where I am (Belgium), for Aîd El Adha, the municipalities go out of their way to accommodate the muslim community : slaughterhouses are reserved just for them, special collectors for waste management, free parking... These facilities cost money to the belgian taxpayer. The question is : would muslim countries, Morocco in particular do the same ?
Fair is fair, you have to look at it from every angle. Muslims were once an enlightened people or so I've heard...
As for student paying their tuitions, it's commonsense, you attend classes taught by people being trained with local taxpayers funds, you sit in a campus paid by and maintained by local taxpayers funds, isn't it fair to pay since you come from abroad and haven't fiscally contributed yet ?
I'm not trying to be controversial here, I'm just applying logic unclouded by any prejudice.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2006 06:57 by chelhman.