Morocco # English board

Dear Ilhem
During my visit to the University of Lausanne I had the opportunity to talk to a professor with arab origin.
It did not last too much that he started talking about moroccan women in Switzerland and about their reputation.I can tell you that I was not happy with the situation. I do not think that these women are poor or they do not have to eat. At the heart of their behaviour is the lack of education so they can understand what is to live in dignity.All what they have in mind is collecting more and more money so they can go back and show up as rich as possible. They are not aware about their self-destruction by being slaves of this industry.
Kids should be teached about other values in life. Respect, loyality, hard work, discipline, dignity, justice etc.
It is the only way to fight prostitution in all its forms including corruption.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2006 01:35 by Krim.

Hi everyone,

Quote
Krim
Dear Ilhem
During my visit to the University of Lausanne I had the opportunity to talk to a professor with arab origin.
It did not last too much that he started talking about moroccan women in Switzerland and about their reputation.I can tell you that I was not happy with the situation. I do not think that these women are poor or they do not have to eat. At the heart of their behaviour is the lack of education so they can understand what is to live in dignity.All what they have in mind is collecting more and more money so they can go back and show up as rich as possible. They are not aware about their self-destruction by being slaves of this industry.
Kids should be teached about other values in life. Respect, loyality, hard work, discipline, dignity, justice etc.
It is the only way to fight prostitution in all its forms including corruption.

Dear Krim,

Come on …you know exactly I’m not talking about those stories here and there…the prostitution exists with guys nearly from all nationalities…this is still small and moderate like any other country ….but when it comes that the phenomenon booms with guys from the Golf till we’re labelled as the country of pleasure and since the 80’s as chelhman mentioned before …more than 25 years successful business with our girls not to mentione guys in the last years ....Please give me a break… however that’s up to you if you don’t wanna see the reality……are you talking about teaching kids values ?!...when people don’t have enough to eat education is the last think they will think about …..i'm giving up really!..

Quote
Ilhem2
Hi everyone,

Quote
Krim
Dear Ilhem
During my visit to the University of Lausanne I had the opportunity to talk to a professor with arab origin.
It did not last too much that he started talking about moroccan women in Switzerland and about their reputation.I can tell you that I was not happy with the situation. I do not think that these women are poor or they do not have to eat. At the heart of their behaviour is the lack of education so they can understand what is to live in dignity.All what they have in mind is collecting more and more money so they can go back and show up as rich as possible. They are not aware about their self-destruction by being slaves of this industry.
Kids should be teached about other values in life. Respect, loyality, hard work, discipline, dignity, justice etc.
It is the only way to fight prostitution in all its forms including corruption.

Dear Krim,

Come on …you know exactly I’m not talking about those stories here and there…the prostitution exists with guys nearly from all nationalities…this is still small and moderate like any other country ….but when it comes that the phenomenon booms with guys from the Golf till we’re labelled as the country of pleasure and since the 80’s as chelhman mentioned before …more than 25 years successful business with our girls not to mentione guys in the last years ....Please give me a break… however that’s up to you if you don’t wanna see the reality……are you talking about teaching kids values ?!...when people don’t have enough to eat education is the last think they will think about …..i'm giving up really!..

Dear Ilhem
What do you suggest ?
Should the moroccan govenment forbid UAE to invest in Morocco ?
With which argument ???

By the way when is Munich ??
Krim

Hello everybody


Dear Krim,
are you joking?...unfortunately the money made those people much more powerful than our government…. I’ll be happy if only the Moroccan government could one day succeed forbidding them other activities if you know what I mean…but this is still a dream....


Otherwise Munich is very soon probably in June……

Illham,

Finally you said something good ( impressive TV speech )..but making fun of someone who has been hounest and positive about your country and people of morocco is really not a nice way of discussion and exchange of opinions. but i do respect your views regardless of how bad you see the future with my countries investment in morocco.

after all the 30000 jobs that will avilable for morocan families in the next 3 years will be there regardless of how bad you think our invesments are.and the good news i have recieved from a manager in the goverment deparment of overseas investment and business development is that we have been given the green light to expand the invesment areas to cover all the major cities not just in realestate but in education,transportation,communication and most importently the tourisom and hotel sectors.

I praise the trust that was put in our investments by your brave hearted, king mohammed and the true morocans who believe in us and our ability to make a change.

Illham without me being too negative..I think you have a peronal experince that is clearly reflected in your views and comments about the UAE people..People after all are not the same..for once look at the bright side of the these invetments..you never know you might end up working in one of these steamed projects that are heading your way.

Hi everybody,

Malandrito,


of course I don’t make fun of you or of anybody else in this forum …do we want to express freely our point of view in this room or do we want to say what the other want to hear? ..personally I’m here because I’d like to share with the others what I think …to exchange our ideas and thoughts honestly and seriously hoping to change at least some of our problems in our country....I’m not here to make compliments being hypocritical in order to make others feel better …this is not gonna make any sense for me….. what I said about your messages is honestly what I think …this is the impression you always give me…

let me ask you something :
why til now ( in 6 of your messages ) you didn’t say absolutely any thing about the Moroccan and the prostitution with the Emeriti in our and your country ? ..why are you avoiding it? Is it so real that you can’t talk about it? Is it not thru? well tell us honestly the truth ? Confirm or denied it ? you don’t wanna talk about it why ? you are the one who has mentioned before clarity and transparency!!!

In dead my opinion is from my individual experience but also from many articles about the matter and particularly from what my friend told me …she is either Moroccan nor Emerati. she’s got no reason to lie …she sees and lives it every single day …in the area where she lives ..beside what all people she knows told her ….there is no more more proof than that!!...

Hello Ilham,
I really hesitated to reply anymore to this part that wasn’t even in my mind when I posted this subject. But I honestly think that it's not at all fair for you to ask Malandrito these questions. If you take quick look at them, you’ll find that none is part of the subject and that this clause took us away from the main post.
On the other hand I could turn the table just a bit and ask you some of these same questions about Morocco: didn’t we have prostitution before even gulf countries discover morocco? Didn’t we have almost entire towns just for that, i.e. El hajeb, Azrou, El Kamouni and some big neighborhoods in big cities? Don’t we have pedophiles? Don’t many Moroccan women work as prostitutes in Israel? And zid ozid ozid. I’m not in any way trying to discredit you, I can tell how passionate you are about this, but I want to tell you that I’ve seen some unfairness in your analogy and lots of anger towards the gulf. I’m very close, or almost certain that you resentment toward UAE came from a personal experience. Is it not?
I also want to tell you that I’ve seen how some Moroccan men behave and treat moroccan women.

The main thing I want to say here is that there are jerks in Morocco, UAE, France, and Germany as well as in Afghanistan. and there are prostitutes in these countries as well. And it’s not fair to treat our guest Malandrito as if he’s the representative of this category in the UAE, just like I and you wouldn’t want to be called a jerk or prostitute Just because there are many Moroccans women and men who deserve to be called as such.
Dear Ilham, I understand what you’re talking about, I know where you're coming from, I know you speak from the heart, I can already tell that you’re a very good and intelligent Moroccan women with Akhlaq and Assalah, like we say in Arabic, I just don’t think that we should generalize in a matter like this, I finaly just don't think we should ask our guest to answer for low level acts he has nothing to do with.
Hope you get my point without seeing any kind of disrespect to you, because I could never do that and I do respect your opinion.
Salam,
Almot
to all who can read arabic, here's an interesting article on Ajazeera.net: [www.aljazeera.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2006 09:07 by almotanabi.

Salam everybody,

Dear almotanabi,

I got your point…hopefully you got mine…in dead what I’m saying is not necessarily part of your subject but for me it’s indirectly related to it ..I ‘m not gonna say why because I suppose I’ve done before …the whole thing is not really about me I can defend my self very well if I would have any bad experience with those guys…I believe: more you know what you want and what you are less you let things upset you …but I though any Moroccan will have agreed that this phenomenon has been out control for long time and somehow it’s time to do something about it!...obviously I’m mistaken …never mind! I’m sure one day you’ll remember be regarding this subject….


I understand from your message you’d prefer this point not to be mentioned any more …no problem!.... done!


However thanks for the article....

No dear Ilham,
I only prefer that we don't hold our guest responsible for the mistakes of others, just like you or I wouldn't want to be held responsible for the mistakes and behaviors of others. Don’t you agree that’s fair?
You wrote: I understand from your message you’d prefer this point not to be mentioned any more …no problem!.... done!
Absolutely not, I have no problem continuing this discussion, I only pointed out that it took us a bit away from the subject.

I just want to applaude the emarati businessmen of finally seising the opportunity to invest in one
of the most beautiful countries in the world. I wish they had started this years ago. I think it's
time for the moderate arabe brothers to work together for the prosperity of their people. As a
moroccan national, i welcome any investor with good intention to come invest in morocco. If it is
an arabe investor he or she is ten times more welcome than anybody else.
What the emarati brothers are doing for morocco and for moroccans is really appreciated.
As for the comment of promoting prostitution, that is baseless. You can be a prostitute in a
five star hotel or in an appartement in housing project.

Hello,

Quote
almotanabi
No dear Ilham,
I only prefer that we don't hold our guest responsible for the mistakes of others, just like you or I wouldn't want to be held responsible for the mistakes and behaviors of others. Don’t you agree that’s fair?
You wrote: I understand from your message you’d prefer this point not to be mentioned any more …no problem!.... done!
Absolutely not, I have no problem continuing this discussion, I only pointed out that it took us a bit away from the subject.

Dear almotanabi,

i didn't held Malandrito responsable for anything ...as an emarati I suppose he should have something to say in this matter!?...if he preferes not ...fine!.... you know the silence is a kind of expressing the point of view too....depends how it will be understood....otherwise I've mostly said my opinion about your subject...in the future when i'll have the opportunity I'll open a post about the prostitution with the emaratis...so no one will get confused....

I don't know why, dear Ilham, but the last 2 lines from your responce made me smile. I really hope that I din't offend you, and I also hope that we didn't do the same to our friend Malandrito and that he's still amongst us.
Take care,
Almot

Hello,


Dear almotanabi,


I’m glade I made you smile….of course you didn’t offend me…if it’s so I certainly would tell you…..

I am a European living in Morocco and also a resort developer. We are building a relatively large project near to Marrakech and its concept is rooted in the essence of Morocco, it's exquisite natural beauty and rich 'fusion' culture influenced from your days of Empire.

It has been our intention in environmental and cultural planning to try to do justice to Moroccan heritage and to build within this spirit or idiom, a project which captures in essence at least in your tradition of artesan and architecture which sets Morocco apart from the other countries of the Arab world and at the announcement of major investment (I cringe slightly at the sound of large Dubai style international projects but nevertheless) these projects can generate a lot of employment but -I tread carefully on this issue- will they damage the heritage and uniqueness of this land or will these 'destination resorts' create a playground for the lower eschelons of the European and Arab world (I saw reference to prostitution as one of the possible negative impacts).

Dubai is an incredible success story in its own right. It is the world leader of 'placemaking' and change. It began from a small city and has grown upwards and outwards in extroardinary time and proportions, it truly is the city of the 21st Century. However, Morocco is not Dubai, neither does it need the type of project Dubai has used to put it on the map which includes building huge beach resorts and islands, snowdomes in the desert all with highly questionable environmental impact. The latter issue, as a climber and trekker in the Atlas mountains where one of the major Dubai investments is going, is of personal concern as it will require huge synthetic snow making resources and completely change the dynamic of this very quaint and unique skiing valley treasured by visitors, walkers, alike.

I don't want to come across as too anti-modernisation in Morocco as the country suffers very difficult economic circumstances and less than good distribution of wealth. On the other hand, if Morocco can focus on enhancing these same natural assets and heritage on which it allures visitors from all over the world, by sensitive planning policies and not following the big $$$ and announcing these huge modern development projects so that there is hardly a mile of beach left to set foot on not overlooked by towering condos, oversized hotels and casinos, then and only then (from a perspective of my humble opionion as a 'Moroccono-file' and also working for the most influencial real estate marketing company in the UK), an excellent future in tourism in the 21st Century without the need to reinvent itself as the next Dubai.

With all due respect, I think we can see the European investments in Morocco producing high class service for Non-Moroccan tourist at high prices; yet the meager salaries have not changed! THis has been the situation for a while now...This is not the palce for the inside info/ stats I happen to have! I say, Let's see what the Emirati experiment will bring, esp one of this magnitude! I am not bashing the Europen endevours,I am rather weary of a Europen exploitation that has been taking advantage of the years of colonisation as well as submitting to the inter-commissions that cut the budget to a minimum leaving...Let's give the Emirati a chance and I am positive they will augment the chances for either themselves or the Europeans, should they fail!

Best;
Yani

First, I want to welcome our new friend alanargent, but right away, I want to let him know that I disagree with him.
I’m all along with Yani ones again, for so long the French, the Spaniards and the British told us how to run our lives, how to govern and what to teach in our schools. For so long they told us what system of government is good for us even how many children we should have, and the results were for so long as meager as could be and as disappointing as one could imagine. The arab world in general, and Morocco especially had had enough of the idea that WE can’t do without the west and I believe it’s time to put ourselves to the test. With all due respect to our new friend, I believe the French, British and others are in panic mode right now, they are starting to see the market they enjoyed for decades getting a bit crowded and they’re going to have to compete with, if not the Arabs, then the Chinese, who are not going to show any mercy in pursuing their goals. The Europeans want Marrakech, Atlas Mountains and the big project to themselves and want to stay the masters forever, never showing the third world countries how to fish, but providing it with fish, and by the way from its (the 3rd world) own oceans and lakes.
It’s ironic that Europeans talk to Moroccans about fearing for the effect of UAE deal on environment in Morocco, these same countries who couple of years ago, and still today, called Moroccan scientists and government everything under the sun, when they decided that it was best to stop fishing certain varieties in Moroccan waters for 2 or 3 to allow these almost depleted varieties to recover.

So, personally, to hear Europeans now days lecturing us about environment protection in our countries, makes me think they’re trying to grab something again and the best way is to present themselves as environment protection police or democracy spreaders. The speeches from Europeans can no longer cut it for 3rd world countries, these countries are now so convinced THE WEST CARES ABOUT THE WEST,
I can’t even believe I’m saying this today, always was pro-western, lets all love each other mentality, but when it comes to sharing wealth, sciences, knowledge and prosperity, I’m somewhat convinced the west wants to give us just enough to keep us on the leash, show us the bone, but never throw it so we can catch and taste it, and I strongly resent that.
I welcome the UAE investment and I hope other Arab countries will follow. Until I see weakness or one of these projects not succeed, I have nothing but praise and celebration.
We gave 50 years to French, Germans, British and Spanish companies to invest and sometime screw up our country, we gave their fleets 50 years to deplete our oceans from God given gifts, lets give somebody else a chance to do it differently.
Salam,
Almot



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2006 03:36 by almotanabi.