Morocco # English board

LeMask don´t you thing that you´re the one who´s being irresponsible here. Declaring war against anyone who should say things you don´t like, as if you can´t be argue otherwise. You´re also willing to reject other muslims just because they disagree with you.
The reason why non muslims aren´t muslims is because they disagree with one or many verses in coran or Islam in general. People cannot all agree or disagree on the same points. But one thing is very important is to agree on the right to say why they disagree with you. Most people who converts to Islam, started being critical about Islam, and first when they satisfy their curiosity they might agree that this the absolute truth. Now how do you think they satisfy their curiosity, if they don´t get the answer they need.
When you can´t debate them, and you don´t know well enough your own religion that gave them the right not to believe in it. Then at least stay neutral and say Allaho a3lam.

we are already at war, they dont behave like friends... this is the thing you have to understand.
i dont want to argue with them. their opinions arent welcome. you act from the inside... or you dont.

and i think that you are making a mistake.

there is two groups, Muslims and non-Muslims. when it comes to Islam, Muslims can speak their minds... but a non-Muslims shouldnt care about Islam in the first place. it's none of his concerns... unless he is trying to convert the Muslims... to destroy their faith. or to destroy the legitimacy of their beliefs, so he can attack them tomorrow with the support of all the other non-Muslims...

and we are at war. i dont understand how you can think that we arent at war.
so stick with your brothers and sisters. dont follow the enemy's propaganda...

they want the freedom to control us, to tell us what to think, what to believe... what to do, who to fight for, how to fight for... they are still in the colonial mindset. and they havent paid for the crimes they have done...

stay sharp.

and once again Cali, this man didnt ask any questions... he is pretending that the devil took control of the prophet or god knows what...
you accept today to discuss one verse or two... and then, they will condemn these verses... and tomorrow it will be the whole book... and then, they will be rounding up Muslims next to big holes with machine guns...

and Passerby... i dont intend to take from people the rights they need... we need the right to discuss some laws... rules, ideas...
but when we let strangers discussing our laws... it's like if you gave them the right to export their own laws...
we have a different culture with it's own style, it's own priorities... etc...
and if we play by their rules. we are sure to lose...

and what i'm talking about here... it's not a right... they are ready to kill to take the right to insult our beliefs... but believe me, they arent ready to die for it...
and it's the proof that it's not a legitimate right...

and i'm not scared. death is much better than the life of a slave. it's because we are cowards that we lost everything... if they attack us, we wont accept it just because they are stronger. and they arent that strong...

and Chelhman, i didnt really read the book. i took some time to read some quotes... and there is good info...
here is his page in Wikipedia:
[en.wikipedia.org]

and here is an interesting quote:

Quote

The publication of The Satanic Verses in September 1988 caused immediate controversy in the Islamic world because of what was perceived as an irreverent depiction of the prophet Muhammad. The title refers to a Muslim tradition that is related in the book. According to it, Muhammad (Mahound in the book) added verses (sura) to the Qur'an accepting three goddesses that used to be worshipped in Mecca as divine beings. According to the legend, Muhammad later revoked the verses, saying the devil tempted him to utter these lines to appease the Meccans (hence the Satanic verses). However, the narrator reveals to the reader that these disputed verses were actually from the mouth of the Archangel Gibreel. The book was banned in many countries with large Muslim communities.

so? Mohammed, the holy prophet of Islam is talking with the Devil? adding three daughters to god? to please the pagan Meccans? ...
so? as Muslims we are somehow Satanists? we are the evil alter ego of the Christians and the Jews?
we have idols, and we follow the devil... great !!!

so, he shouldnt mind afterall... he should understand... we are evil Satanists... he wont mind if we threaten to kill him...

nah, really... it's ridiculous... in fact, it's more because of the British than him. he is just a crazy person for me. but these damn Brits are looking for trouble...

LeMask,

Thanks for the link. However, I don't see where the insult is, and if you read carefully, the quote doesn't say that the Prophet talked to the Devil but that the Devil tempted him, which is pretty much what the Devil is supposed to do, that's his "job"
So again, I don't see what the fuss is all about, unless there are other passages in the book...

As for your "war" with the non-muslims, I'll keep an eye out, they are indeed so...devilish

One question though : are you also at war with their universities, where I assume you studied, their social security systems, their hospitals, their social assistance when you land on your rear-end... ?
Or is it a selective war ?
And while you're at it, are you writing from a muslim country ? I assume a person with your religious integrity wouldn't stand living among such vile creatures ?
Please feel free to elaborate, it's always a delight to read your incoherent rants

chelhman you have to be blind to not believe in the war...
first, there is a never ending war between good and evil... and we call it life.

i dont pretend that the "Muslims" are always the "good guys"... but we shouldnt give up.

think about the colonisation? palestine? Iraq? Afghanistan? the cold war? the Venezuela? the democracy? guantanamo? the UN?

and it wont hurt you to be honest from time to time. i dont need their social help or their hospitals to live, thanks for caring. and i have nothing against their university. the problem isnt there...

but in the university, there is a battlefield you know. when they make these laws to ban the Muslim student who wear the Hijab... isnt it an act of war?

they kick your daughters out of the school, and then, they accuse you of being evil because your daughters dont go to school...
they do it in a smart way... they wont attack you from front. no, they are sneaky... they stab you in the back...

and i dont know what you mean about "selective war"... but they attack when they can.
you make war with what you have, not with what you want...

when they can hurt you, they do... but they do it while hiding their intents.
it's like democracy... democracy is a system, it's not "evil"...
but it can be used.
you give the power to the people, and then, you buy the people... money, sex, drugs, alcohol... and then, you enslave this people... with a banking system or with politics...

and i'm not an "integrist" like you think i am. i'm a normal person. i just dont trust the system. they serve us so many lies...
and you are lying to yourself...

LeMask,

I don't think you're a "fundamentalist" (not "integrist", you're mixing french and english), I think you listen too much to hateful speeches and it tends to make you selfrighteous.

About the hijab affair, if there was an attack, it was by muslim fundamentalists who got the girls all worked up about wearing the hijab and stood back to watch the fireworks.
There's a saying back home : darrbou ou b'ka, ssab9ou ou chka
France is a secular country, it is written in the Constitution, there is a law that exists since 1905, so France should cancel that law because a bunch of girls have an urge to wear a hijab ? Which incidently has nothing to do with Islam. The hijab is not a muslim requirement contrary to popular belief.

One more thing : doesn't it strike as odd that two generations of muslim immigrants (I am the second) had no problem with secular schools and all of sudden a minority of muslims need to wear their religion like a badge ?

There is no war here, if there's one, it's with a minority of muslims who can't adjust and want to bring down all muslims with them in their suicidal path. The way I see it, you're a victim of their speeches.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/2007 11:56 by chelhman.

sorry, but "integriste" in french or "fundamentalist" dont mean much to me... they are just words we use to put labels on people we dont understand... a bit like "nazi" or god knows what...

and what speeches are you talking about? i dont watch TV, and my level in Arabic is pretty poor... among all the books i have, i have only one book by Amro Khaled... "les moralités du croyant" or "the moral values of the believer/faithful" (my translation)...

so i honestly dont think that your explanation is the right one.

and the Hijab affair in very interesting. you say that the Hijab isnt a Muslim outfit? okay, why not? ... so why they banned it?

but the problem isnt here. a Muslim girl have to be modest... i dont mean that she have to wear dirty clothes to look like an insect... but that she have to hide some parts of her body in the public domain.

i think that you can agree with me that Muslim women (and men) shouldnt walk half naked in the streets.

but where is the limit to "half naked"? ... where?
some girls think that the Hijab is like choosing "safety" to be "sure"... and it's their right.

if tomorrow the french society decide that it's fine to be completely naked in the streets... should the Muslim girls do the same? NOT!

my position is simple, Muslims are free people, a Muslim girl should wear whatever she wants ... it's between her and her parents (family) (who are the only real authority in this world).

why should i accept the opinion of a non-Muslim? he isnt like me... we have different views, objectives and more... we are different. so why you give him the right to intervene in my life?

and by the way, we arent the only ones having his problem.
the Jews suffer the same way. the Zionnist hijacked their religion... and turned it into a nationalist religion... and look at the results (Palestine).
you see? this is what going on when we forget our religion and let the atheists to take control...

(if you care for more about that: [en.wikipedia.org] )

secular... what a joke...

the whole moslem world is ablaze now, let's face it folks : Bush said it and he meant it :" it'll be a new cruisade war !" what do you want to hear more to believe ? whether you accept it or not, you're under arrest until Bush and his "hawks" say otherwise ! unless you accept to follow their orders and stripp off your religion and your beliefs, you're in trouble !
The question of Hijab is clear and there's no need to explain more : in Islam and to be a good Moslem girl/woman, you sould wear hijab and cover what you have been told to cover everthing but the hands and the face no less ! Islam is like that, we're not animals like westerners do, they stripped girls and made'em look like any other product they sell, what's left of a human in a girl who's dancing naked or posing in a store window? this freedom they're talking about has stolen/sold all the humane and morals that differs a human from an animal, a religion is a beliefs and a way of life, a nun isn't supposed to wear any kind of threads, a conservative jewish girl isn't allowed to show her legs and parts of her body, why when it comes to Islamic wear you're raising hell?

honestly Chelhman, i try to take a "moderate" stance... but i wont smile like an idiot to someone who is trying to rule me.

and the world is taking a weird turn. and we dont want to follow it...

and Chelhman, tell me one thing. you always ask me "if you hate the West so much, what are you doing here?"... you should know one thing, even if you dont believe in the banking system, even if you think that it's a joke... in this era, you are forced to have a bank account.

even if you dont like money, you are forced to have some money... because you cant live without money.

the world evolved that way. and we are today alienated like that.

i'm not into nationalism, i hate my passport, i hate my national card... for me, these are like symbols of the "owner"... like if i was a slave. i'm owned by Morroco. and the state of Morroco and the people controling this state control me.

but what can i do? they never asked me if i wanted a card or not. they just gave me one.

of course, hopefully, it's not all bad, there is some good sides in the system... but you see what i mean... it's not what i call freedom.

so you should learn to question every detail in your life... and ask yourself "why?"... "do i really need that?"...
and you will see that it's very often to serve the interests of a little group...

LeMask,

Nobody is trying to rule you, you're being paranoïd. There are options, you choose which one you want but you can't have it both ways. You want to have all the comforts offered by a western society and spit on it at the same time by playing the wounded muslim.
The bank account example you gave me doesn't apply, it's not the same thing as choosing to live in the West. Nobody is forcing you to stay in France, if you're so annoyed by western values then there are muslim countries far more orthodox than Morocco for example, you can choose to live in the Persian Gulf, your criticism would be more credible.

To get back to the subject, in my view Salman Rushdie didn't say anything that warrants this whole brouhaha, it's been manipulated to heat up things and, as somebody else put it here, instead of debating the points he raised, muslim fundamentalists made a fool of every other muslim, just like they did in the caricatures affair.
Is this what islam has come to ? Toeing the line of idiots who measure the advancement of civilization on how much cloth they can put on a woman or start burning flags and tyres everytime something doesn't get through their medieval intellectual grid ?
You said muslims are at war ? You're probably right, but the enemy is within.

i understand your position, but i'm not paranoid, you are naive.

there is no such thing as a medieval intellectual grid, they are just defending themselves against the foreign aggression.

remember Communism? what is communism? it's an economic/political system, made to fight the social injustice in the world... it's not a perfect a system. i'm not into communism, but i have to say that it's a nice try... for a human.

but the "West" attacked Communism like if it was a satanist plot to rule the world...
and it was replaced by capitalism... the capitalist model serves the interests of the wealthy...

rich people can make money without working... and more money they have, more money they make, and more money they will gain...

this is why today, we have plenty of people who make money without giving the society any service...

capitalism isnt all bad, but it's not a perfect system. and with time, it will be a real problem...

Islam is a bit like Communism. it gives freedom, rights and duties... it's a perfect system.
and the rulers of this world are afraid of that. they can lose the control of the population...

and you Chelhman, as a Muslim, why you dont care about an Oumma? why you dont support your fellow Muslims when they get attacked?

LeMask,

As always we're getting off subject but let me nuance your views on capitalism : it works because it serves human nature, I told you this before, we are a territorial and competitive species, so it is only logical that a system which nurtures our instincts would fit perfectly. Competition is the mother of invention, and capitalism is all about competition. It has its flaws but we haven't come up with a better one.
Communism was very attractive as a concept but it swam against the current.

About your umma thing, once again we've had this conversation before, there is no umma, there hasn't been for centuries now. It's much like communism, great concept but no chance of success because every nation has its own interests. Look at us and Algeria, where is your umma when it comes to the Sahara issue ? There are many more examples across the muslim world. We are a world of nations, that's it, the rest is a pipedream.

Muslims who talk about an umma suffer from what Irshad Manji calls the "supremacy complex", they still haven't swallowed the loss of superiority, it's over, empires have risen and fallen since then.
It's cultural darwinism at work, what made muslims great was the science they brought to the world, they fell when they started burning books, like they did with Ibn Rushd's. A mark of intelligence would be to adapt, not to try to turn back the clock to the 8th century, that's just stupidity and stubornness.
These are facts, if you find your fiction comforting somehow, I don't. Sooner or later facts have a way of biting you in the rear-end.
I don't identify with this brand of islam, so that answers your question on why I don't feel insulted by what Salman Rushdie writes or a danish cartoon, I couldn't care less. Faith is not about guarding your dogma like a pitbull, if you can't take a few jokes or some criticism, then your faith isn't all that strong to begin with.
Besides, you know what I think about faith and dogma.

no Chelhman, we are on the same subject.

the world is ruled by an elite, and this elite fears Islam because it's fighting some parts in the human nature. while they are using these parts of the human nature to rule and to gain power.

and i'm not against Capitalism because of that. i'm against capitalism because it allows some people to make money without giving any service to the society.
i join the Communists who label a part of society as a "parasite" sucking the blood of the honest working people...

and where is the problem is swimming against the current? should we surrender at the first problem?
and you are a Muslim, how can you say "there is no better system." it's really sad to hear...

and yes, there is no Umma, but it's an ideal. and we should follow it. at least, we would be building something we believe in...

and this Irshad Manji is mistaking... it's NOT a superiority complex... it's not about an empire. it's about living as you want to live. it's about freedom.
i dont want to live in a nation, i want to live in the Oumma.

it's my right not? and why should i care about the interests of these nations? i'm not stupid to give up on my interests to serve the interests of the others...
this is slavery...

and i am adapted. i'm not in prison, i'm not hiding in a cave... i live confortably among other people who dont want the same things as me. because i think that there is better than that.

and i know what you think about dogma... but yet, you are following another dogma... that's all... and it's not even yours...

Sometimes I wonderif LeMask is genuine or just acting,but it seems he is really genuine.

Could you tell us what you ar doing to win this war? (concrete acts please)

Passerby? what war you are talking about? ... there is a fight on many areas.

first, we arent powerful enough to take the fight by front. so we have to be smart rather than to try to use brute force...

the objective is to put an end to the exploitation. we get rid of the puppet governments in our countries. we can do that democratically... no, in fact, we must do that democratically... or they can use that to come and get us after that.

and then, we should open negotiations but as equals. and we shouldnt be afraid to say "we dont agree, so please leave us now."
this is an important part. there is at least three positions. neutral, friendly and hostile...

if we cant be friends, then we can at least be neutral...

i'm for building a barrier between the West and the Muslim world... and once you cross this barrier, you have to respect the laws in the other side...
and it wont be a problem, because, if you arent happy, you can always stay out...

the UN have a law about the self determination... every "group" of human beings have the right to choose a set of laws to adopt...
rather than to cut the world into nations like the West do (if they like this system, i'm happy for them, but it's not the case for me)...

and i think that a tribal system would be much better. every tribe would have it's own laws (tribunals)... it's own police... it's own territory...
using such system, we could have many religions and ethnicities living in a same "nation"... with total independence...

of course, we can make a cooperation between these groups... with a federal police/army... conventions and such...
the most important thing for me is to take out the democratic system where the majority have more power in a nation...

i take that from the management course i took this year... it's called "systemic approach"...
it's a big system, cut into many sub systems to give the company a smooth organization, where everybody is following his own objectives... and the main objective in economy is to make profit.
but in politics, the main objective is to provide security, freedom and PEACE.

and when i see in the streets of Paris, these Communists (left wing) asking me "we have to stop the right wing"... i think that there is no peace in democracy. we fight with words... there is no blood, but it's still a fight. and the people will get bored someday... and there will be blood.

anyway...
in fact, i'm more angry at the british for honoring this Salmane Rushdy than with Salmane Rushdy... that's for sure.

Quote
LeMask
Passerby? what war you are talking about? ... there is a fight on many areas.

first, we arent powerful enough to take the fight by front. so we have to be smart rather than to try to use brute force...

the objective is to put an end to the exploitation. we get rid of the puppet governments in our countries. we can do that democratically... no, in fact, we must do that democratically... or they can use that to come and get us after that.

and then, we should open negotiations but as equals. and we shouldnt be afraid to say "we dont agree, so please leave us now."
this is an important part. there is at least three positions. neutral, friendly and hostile...

if we cant be friends, then we can at least be neutral...

i'm for building a barrier between the West and the Muslim world... and once you cross this barrier, you have to respect the laws in the other side...
and it wont be a problem, because, if you arent happy, you can always stay out...

the UN have a law about the self determination... every "group" of human beings have the right to choose a set of laws to adopt...
rather than to cut the world into nations like the West do (if they like this system, i'm happy for them, but it's not the case for me)...

and i think that a tribal system would be much better. every tribe would have it's own laws (tribunals)... it's own police... it's own territory...
using such system, we could have many religions and ethnicities living in a same "nation"... with total independence...

of course, we can make a cooperation between these groups... with a federal police/army... conventions and such...
the most important thing for me is to take out the democratic system where the majority have more power in a nation...

i take that from the management course i took this year... it's called "systemic approach"...
it's a big system, cut into many sub systems to give the company a smooth organization, where everybody is following his own objectives... and the main objective in economy is to make profit.
but in politics, the main objective is to provide security, freedom and PEACE.

and when i see in the streets of Paris, these Communists (left wing) asking me "we have to stop the right wing"... i think that there is no peace in democracy. we fight with words... there is no blood, but it's still a fight. and the people will get bored someday... and there will be blood.

anyway...
in fact, i'm more angry at the british for honoring this Salmane Rushdy than with Salmane Rushdy... that's for sure.

oh man, you are a total and utter joke (bad one).

Didn't occur to you that if there was a barrier between the West and muslim countries, you would not have been able to go to France? actually,it's worse, muslims would be still living in caves and tents and riding donkeys. think before you write such nonsense.

dont quote the message just above yours dude...

and you are mistaking again... it's more a cultural/political barrier than anything else...

i'm not opposed to commerce... but independance is very important... it's much better to ride a donkey than to be enslaved...

and what makes you think that the Muslims cant make their own cars?

you see us as useless people who cant live alone...

do you think about all the products living the third world countries? do you think about all the money, all the oil, all the smart people who leave the third world countries to work in the rich countries?

you are a joke sir...

Salman Rushdie was rewarded because of the bad things he said about islam and the offending stuff he wrote about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), while a britisher David Irving is doing time because of holocaust denial !! what a way to show how "democratic" some democratic countries are ! Salman Rushdie should be beheaded , as simple as that !

Hi Shelby,

I don't really agree with you that Rushdie was rewarded only for his Satanic Verses. We have the right to be upset but we shouldn't be unfair. Rushdie has written a number of books, the satanic verses was written 19 years ago and was followed by many others, amongst them an official apology to Khomeini after the silly fatwa was issued. I don't know why you are comparing Rushdie's knighthood with Irving's imprisonement, they are completely different issues! Irving was condamned in France and Germany and NOT in Britain! The complex of the holocaust make the Germans feel so guilty that they wouldn't allow anyone to deny it, So in Ivring's case, the law has been applied and that's it while Rushdie has received an award for his literary works and wouldn't be jailed or beheaded as you wish because there is no law to condemn writers. Freedom of speech is respected in Britain and I think this indeed makes Britain one of the few truly democratic countries.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2007 11:35 by Minniemouse.

Quote
shelby
Salman Rushdie was rewarded because of the bad things he said about islam and the offending stuff he wrote about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), while a britisher David Irving is doing time because of holocaust denial !! what a way to show how "democratic" some democratic countries are ! Salman Rushdie should be beheaded , as simple as that !

Beheaded? i find it hard to believe that someone can call for such a violence on a public forum. (BTW, calling for murder is illegal and you must hope that you will get away with it)

I was wondering what was wrong with us? now I know, it's the likes of you and LeMask that are shaming the rest of the muslims.

Passerby? it's not a call for murder, but rather a call for justice... this man said false things about a very important figure in the world.

and he is giving ammo to a hate speech against the Muslims.

you can translate his book into a number of dead Muslims... just a matter of time.

...And you're one of the dead-hearted moslems Mr Passerby, how in hell can you judge me as you did? that SOB insulted more than one and a half billion people and you calling his punishement "murder"? let me tell you something: it's not because he's insulted our prophet Muhammad that he should be beheaded, many non-moslems did, but for his case, he WAS a moslem and for your information we call it "7ad ariddah" for those who skin themselves off their islam, whether you accept it or not, things are like that in islam, he who kills for no reason should be killed, he who steals should have his hand cut off, etc... don't let yanks look fairer than you are because they sure would fry you if you're sentenced to death penalty, the US is a democratic country i guess, aint' it? why the double standards?
and i'm proud of being considered one of those you call "primitives", in one of his Ahadeeths, Prophet Muhammad said : (" Islam started strangely and it'll return strangely ,blessed be those "strangers" )-my translation-( alislamu bada'a ghareeban wa saya3oudu ghareeban kama kan, fa touba lil ghoraba'a), freedom of speech has nothing to do with insulting others !

today: rumor that the prophet of the Muslims is a satanist.
future: the world think that the prophet of the Muslims is really a satanist.
future+1: the world is SURE that the prophet of the Muslims is a satanist.
future+2: the world is sure that the followers of this satanist prophet are evil satanists...
future+3: big war against evil... how to clean the evil followers of the satanist prophet with machine guns...
future+4: there is some links between the beliefs of the dead followers of the satanist prophet and the beliefs of Jews and Christians... are they evil too?
thanks to freedom of speech, some think it's the case... all the others who say otherwise are a danger to freedom of speech...