Morocco # English board

Firstall excuse me for my poor english.
I would like just giving my point of view.
I think there is not contradiction between the fact to be interesting by amazigh culture and to be a good morocan patriot.
For exemple ,I'm french but i'am also celt(from brittany region).In some way ,i would feel most links with ohters celts (like ireland)than with french living in the south of France.I need to discover more about Celts to learn more about me .But I'm french and I love my country.
So I think is to be a litlle paranoaic to see in this movement the sionnist hand and the desire of separation with the country
In every country ,people likes to go back in the past to learn about themeselves.

Chelhman ,i would like just inform you about a book that I have read.I put a post in culture forum about this book.I think you love it.The author seems to have the same point of view of you .

Aie aie sorry for the faults ....

No raca, you're actually doing quite well. Keep at it. I'll check out the book you mentioned, thanks for the info.

Mr. Kouider;

" by labeling and what you call contemptuously, I know it, "dialect".

What contempt are you talking about? Do you actually read responses before you respond? You seem to know lots of things but your premise in this regard is flaud! Note I'm honoring you in calling it a premise, because I really see nothing but intellectualchaos!

Don't talk about syntax because I see none in your last "sentences"! Don't play with words such as "language", "dialect" and "variants"! Try using the term Varieties and you'll be within the ball park; variants that something else! I don't want to bore you with definitions as you probably know all those!

Now, What is it that you have to offer to revive "the Amazigh question" within a Moroccan context?
Don't go back crying over AL Atlal because we want to go forward. Your backward thinking, for lack of a better term, does not serve the purpose.

Fianlly, in all fairness, determine your position as either a Moroccan or...I'll discuss the issue at hand with you,regardless; provided you actually read and listen! But please make up your mind about who you are; otherwise no one is going to take you seriously!

Back to the topic, I just finished a book-The Conquest of Morocco, by Douglas Porch. Most of the historical events, I learned from my father and grandfather, but the book offers a different take on these events. And yes, it talks about the Rif and the Atlas movements as Key in Kicking the French and claiming Morocco as an indepedent country. It also tackles the berber arab relationship tracing it back to the arab invasions in the 7th and 11th centuries. Some passages shed light on the strange relationships between arabs and berbers, a term used in the book to refer to dwellers of the three major/distinct regions in Morocco.

Yani

Quote
Yani
Mr. Kouider;

" by labeling and what you call contemptuously, I know it, "dialect".

What contempt are you talking about? Do you actually read responses before you respond? You seem to know lots of things but your premise in this regard is flaud! Note I'm honoring you in calling it a premise, because I really see nothing but intellectualchaos!

Don't talk about syntax because I see none in your last "sentences"! Don't play with words such as "language", "dialect" and "variants"! Try using the term Varieties and you'll be within the ball park; variants that something else! I don't want to bore you with definitions as you probably know all those!

Now, What is it that you have to offer to revive "the Amazigh question" within a Moroccan context?
Don't go back crying over AL Atlal because we want to go forward. Your backward thinking, for lack of a better term, does not serve the purpose.

Fianlly, in all fairness, determine your position as either a Moroccan or...I'll discuss the issue at hand with you,regardless; provided you actually read and listen! But please make up your mind about who you are; otherwise no one is going to take you seriously!

Back to the topic, I just finished a book-The Conquest of Morocco, by Douglas Porch. Most of the historical events, I learned from my father and grandfather, but the book offers a different take on these events. And yes, it talks about the Rif and the Atlas movements as Key in Kicking the French and claiming Morocco as an indepedent country. It also tackles the berber arab relationship tracing it back to the arab invasions in the 7th and 11th centuries. Some passages shed light on the strange relationships between arabs and berbers, a term used in the book to refer to dwellers of the three major/distinct regions in Morocco.

Yani

The one who is playing with words is you, not me, i ask you once more to show respect and defference to my language as you would do for any other language of mankind!
"Variant" is the most suitable word for the case i was talking about, no one else, keep for yourself the word "variety" and try to use it appropriately in some of your biased anwsers!!!
Such an important question embracing an entire region as north-africa has no need for
narrowly focused people be that be on their villages or any other reduced area.
Short-sighted and ideologicaly oriented people like you are among those responsible for the disatrous results we all know!!!
You should already have grasped my "offers" to "revive the Amazigh Question", they are just right in my posts.

Kouider

Mr. Kouider;

Note How I've been addressing you as Mr.! I probably shouldn't, but What are you smoking?

I have the impression I'm addressing either somebody who is utterly stupid or playing one! I have the feeling that You must have been really hurt, emotionally, physically, mentally...by some general and Co, and you're here seeking shelter and craving for a sense of belonging! I will welcome you, and even vote to grant you a moroccan C.I.N but get off your fictitious horse and quit refering to "my" language...heritage..." for common sense'sake, I will say it again, Know and determine who you are, and I will help you! the last time I visited the UN, I didn't see a Seat that says NORTH AFRICAN!or even Amazighri! and note, I am a soussi Moroccan if you even Know what that means!

A piece of advice: Try to relax and release that anger listening to OUdaden, Tachnouit or Rais Damssiri; or better yet, try Najmat Zayan 7ad'a et A'ki as well. Enjoy because I'm done pourring water in the sand! Good luck to you.

Now let's get back to Tamazight!
Cheers

Yani

Quote

Yani

I'm done pourring water in the sand!

el ma f'ramla, I haven't heard that one in a long time. You're soussi, no doubt about that !LOL

Dear Yani dear Chelhman
I copy/past an abstract related to the topic.May be one of you has access to the full paper.
Take care
Krim




Language policy in Morocco: Problems and prospects of teaching Tamazight
Mohammed Errihani A1
A1
Abstract:
The present paper examines the new language policy of teaching Berber (Tamazight) in Moroccan schools, which came into effect in the fall of 2003 when Tamazight was for the first time introduced in some 300 elementary schools across the country. This study aims primarily at discussing the status of this language policy while it is still in its initial stages of implementation. The findings discussed here are based on a qualitative research conducted in Morocco around the end of 2004 and the beginning of 2005. The data was collected mostly through interviews and classroom observation. The interviews were conducted with several members of IRCAM, representatives of the Ministry of Education, inspectors and teachers of Tamazight, high school teachers, university professors as well as a large sampling of the Moroccan population, both Arabs and Imazighen. The classroom observations, which included both levels one and two of Tamazight, took place in several elementary schools, mostly in the region of Fez.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/20/2006 08:24 by Krim.

Quote
Yani
Mr. Kouider;

Note How I've been addressing you as Mr.! I probably shouldn't, but What are you smoking?

I have the impression I'm addressing either somebody who is utterly stupid or playing one! I have the feeling that You must have been really hurt, emotionally, physically, mentally...by some general and Co, and you're here seeking shelter and craving for a sense of belonging! I will welcome you, and even vote to grant you a moroccan C.I.N but get off your fictitious horse and quit refering to "my" language...heritage..." for common sense'sake, I will say it again, Know and determine who you are, and I will help you! the last time I visited the UN, I didn't see a Seat that says NORTH AFRICAN!or even Amazighri! and note, I am a soussi Moroccan if you even Know what that means!

A piece of advice: Try to relax and release that anger listening to OUdaden, Tachnouit or Rais Damssiri; or better yet, try Najmat Zayan 7ad'a et A'ki as well. Enjoy because I'm done pourring water in the sand! Good luck to you.

Now let's get back to Tamazight!
Cheers

Yani

I sincerely dont need your "welcome".
I do know very well which person I was writing to,
that is why I shortly got to the point which would best depict your arabist' arrogance!!!
I am north-african, you do like it or not, i courteously dont CARE!!!

Kouider 1


Hey chelhman!!!

I dont think that yani, a man who visited the UN is asking for your help, maybe he can disentangle himself without you, let him TRY!!!!

Kouider 2

Dear Yani dear Chelhman
I copy/past an abstract related to the topic.May be one of you has access to the full paper.
Take care
Krim



Language policy in Morocco: Problems and prospects of teaching Tamazight
Mohammed Errihani A1
A1
Abstract:
The present paper examines the new language policy of teaching Berber (Tamazight) in Moroccan schools, which came into effect in the fall of 2003 when Tamazight was for the first time introduced in some 300 elementary schools across the country. This study aims primarily at discussing the status of this language policy while it is still in its initial stages of implementation. The findings discussed here are based on a qualitative research conducted in Morocco around the end of 2004 and the beginning of 2005. The data was collected mostly through interviews and classroom observation. The interviews were conducted with several members of IRCAM, representatives of the Ministry of Education, inspectors and teachers of Tamazight, high school teachers, university professors as well as a large sampling of the Moroccan population, both Arabs and Imazighen. The classroom observations, which included both levels one and two of Tamazight, took place in several elementary schools, mostly in the region of Fez.

Hi Krim,

Thanks for the info. On the subject, I'm not sure we are ready to take it that far. France has launched a similar program in Britanny, if Raca is around she may confirm. But we don't have enough ressources to do that, the education system is stretched too thin as it is. I'm simply advocating a recognition of the amazigh heritage and culture. It could be in the form of adding a few chapters in the history books, maybe a national holiday, stuff like that. I'm realistic, besides its cultural value, the amazigh language isn't a internationally understood language, so let's stick to recognizing the heritage to avoid the nonsense I've read from some here, like we were just a bunch of ignorant sheperds before the Arabs came.

Kouider, I wasn't helping anyone, Yani is a big boy, he can take care of himself. I was simply adding a point of view to the debate.

Kouider
Why are you boiling every time you reply in this forum ?
There is no need for that. We are not going to vote a law. We are not on our way to print history books. We are just trying to learn from each other that´s all.

Dear Chelhman
I copy/paste your first .....
As promised I'm opening this post so that we can discuss the Amazigh question in Morocco calmly if possible.


I love this " calmly "

absolutely Krim, there were two things I knew, that were impossible to discuss "calmly", it was islam and Israel. Now we can add the amazigh question to that list.

Quote
Krim
Kouider
Why are you boiling every time you reply in this forum ?
There is no need for that. We are not going to vote a law. We are not on our way to print history books. We are just trying to learn from each other that´s all.

Hello krimo,

You r back again and I am happy to read from you!
I am just saying what should be said and what some nefarious people should hear!
Half a century of denials and denegations!!! Enough is enough!!!

Kouider

Je n'ai rien compris, peut-être il vaut mieux

I confirm what you say Chelhman.

The accept of the minorities langage is also a debat in the european parlment.I think(i'm not sure)France doesn't recongnize them in her constitution but does with them.

But we don't care.There are others ways to keep our culture:music (now since fews years there is a celtic festival which is now very important )food,books ,litterature and above all us.

But I'm not agree with people who want the Brittany independance(don't laugh is true ....I know is ridiculous).

I've been to Morocco last year during the summer, I searched for the amazigh books, that is the ones they were supposed to use in the schools. I searched in all libraries of my town, and to tell you the truth some didn't even know that they existed.
Also it's a beginning of the project, and for sure the results will appear in the years to come.. whether it will be successful or not, time will tell. But then, how is the amazigh question connected to politics?
The amazigh question is indeed extremely complicated to discuss.

Quote

raca

I confirm what you say Chelhman.

The accept of the minorities langage is also a debat in the european parlment.I think(i'm not sure)France doesn't recongnize them in her constitution but does with them.

But we don't care.There are others ways to keep our culture:music (now since fews years there is a celtic festival which is now very important )food,books ,litterature and above all us.

But I'm not agree with people who want the Brittany independance(don't laugh is true ....I know is ridiculous).

I've read about that independence demand by some, it's indeed ridiculous. In Belgium, there is a movement as well from the francophone side advocating that Wallonia should be attached to France in case Flemish split up the country.
In Morocco, the situation is different, Imazighen are the majority and their demands are not political. We are the native culture and the culture and history has been zapped from the records. I say we've missed the train of history, all we can do now is not let the language die, anything else would be unrealistic and counter-productive, we have other fishes to fry these days, like securing basic social needs.

[www.emarrakech.info]

Krim, it might seem inflammatory to some but the article states hard facts. The problem is those opposing the amazigh debate are trying to paint us as dangerous separatists and secular which we're not. It's only culture, nothing else. We are Moroccans, denying the native heritage is fueling more radical views. What's next ? Reservations and casino licences for Imazighen ?

Chelhman
I did start another discussion on The Fassis. The role of this component of the moroccan society need also to be discussed and calmly I hope. All these issues need to be discussed in order to have the big picture.

Krim,

Thanks for the Link. I read the article and I second what shelhamn said about it.

The cultural aspect adds to the strength of our beloved country morocco. The components of this culture draw their strength and existence from each other; therefore making them tied to one another! The one beauty of Morocco is the clear cut difference(s) in so many ways between Rif, the Atlas, and Souss... The food the music, the poetry...The dialects in Morocco are not dying and are very well alive and celebrated and these are but simple attempts that add to that celebration and recongnition...an official language, arabic in our case,is,as somebody already put it, a glue that keeps us all together!

Quote
Yani
Krim,

Thanks for the Link. I read the article and I second what shelhamn said about it.

The cultural aspect adds to the strength of our beloved country morocco. The components of this culture draw their strength and existence from each other; therefore making them tied to one another! The one beauty of Morocco is the clear cut difference(s) in so many ways between Rif, the Atlas, and Souss... The food the music, the poetry...The dialects in Morocco are not dying and are very well alive and celebrated and these are but simple attempts that add to that celebration and recongnition...an official language, arabic in our case,is,as somebody already put it, a glue that keeps us all together!

Berber speaking moroccans are so "alive" and "very well" that their numbering had been passed from 75% out of the total population in the sixties to maybe less that 40% now!!!

Thanks for the care of the arabistos!!!

Kouider

Yani,
The dialect that you are talking about is Darija, which is used around morroco, and still some people don't understand it and depending on the town you live there is a distinction for instance North, Center, and South... then in the North, for instance, depending on the town, the way people speak is different, using different words.
I have to disagree with you regarding the language of unity, which you named as arabic. I know hundreds that do not speak, neither write arabic (in Morocco). Let's not forget that the arabization started not so many years ago. Among the three types of amazigh, there are many differences, but there are also several similarities.

I had always been astonished by the arabistos' impudence to "arabize" us!
The similiraty is as if some ufos' aliens named "birds" decide audaciously to come in and "birdisze" us, what a daredevilty and insolence!!!

Kouider

Most documents are in Arabic or french or both. Arabic is the official language.
If 60 t0 70 % do not understand arabic it is because of illeteracy which you can find in most regions of Morocco. It is not specific to the Amazigh.........
Education of the masses was not a priority of the rulers and this is the problem.

This is an interesting read. First and foremost, I am not a berber. I just want to make that clear. I am African though. This is what I hear from the arabs who come from the Middle East. They say that Moroccans don't even speak arabic. I found that to be quite interesting and sometimes shocking, since most moroccans I have met in the US say they are arabs. I even had a friend whose Mom is Shlah insist he was arab. He was quickly "shot" down by a saudi who rejected him as such.

In serious academia, most scholars agree that the Amazigh character is what makes morocco and north africa for that matter, so different from the rest of the "arab world". Most agree that derija is not arabic at all. The Amazigh people do have a tremendous histroy... not written in berber of course, but in Latin and greek. It is one of the most ignored histories on the african continent. I have some articles if anyone is interested. I hope I don't piss anyone off.

Riffman and all
"Let's not forget that the arabization started not so many years ago. Among the three types of amazigh, there are many differences, but there are also several similarities."

I counldn't agree with you more in this regard!Regarding Arabic as the dominant, Besides Krim's response to the dominant language(s),if you will,being used in the Moroccan administration, I know my friends in the north can't understand my soussi cousins but if they use the Darija(with its different forms), which I refer to as a Variety of the Arabic language, there's a chance in some understanding..despite the slang which is particular to ceratian regions and even within the same same city...

As to my reference to the Three major Codes of communication; namely Tariifit, tachlihit and Tassoussit, I haven't come across enough Data that qualifies Tamazight as a Language! My attempt at getting to that stage scientifically is starting from the basic data I have: in general, e.g the Rif is a major region in Morocco that uses one very distinct Code with its own system that's solely understood by Moroccans im the riff region. To add to your point, yes there are differences and similarities but we're talking about a SYSTEM that's consistent in the three major Forms that IS NOT THERE OR YET PROVEN TO BE THERE< WHICH IS WHY WE KEEP CELEBRATING/Reseraching THE AMAZIGHEN QUESTION. The fact that a Moroccan arab/soussi, like me, doesn't understand it ALL, makes it less prevalent, less dominant BUT by No Means Less important, rather it makes it a major component, for NOW, if you will, Berber Dialect.

As to the darija: I agreeably disagree with you, but The way I am heading is to refer to Arabic as Language with Many forms and I prefer to use the term: Varieties rather than dialect. NOw I have a reasons for heading that way, because ultimately I will have to use the term dialect and then get rid of itand giving/coining another term! secret for now

The way we're heading now is that Moroccan Arabic has passed the stages of being a variety and proving the case of being referred to as a LANGUAGE challenging Classical/Modern Arabic!
As you well know, The Spoken Arabic is DIFFERENT from THE WRITTEN ONE ( The classical? Standard? a term so vague in these circumstances)!And by the way this is the case of only 2 Languages among the 5000 languages Known to Linguists: Greek being the other one!

What does TAMAZIGHT (inclusive term for the three major Codes/ dialects) have to do with The situation of Arabic with all its varieties/ dialects?...these are just few of the reserach questions I have on my list for my reserach, which is patented Just kidding!

I understand that there are ideologies behind every theory...but that's not my interest here! I don't want to get stuck in the 7th Century, really! I don'y want to forget it, and I am not, but I don't want to dwell on/in it...it's not healthy.
That's all for now and thanks...

Quote
Krim
Dear Yani dear Chelhman
I copy/past an abstract related to the topic.May be one of you has access to the full paper.
Take care
Krim



Language policy in Morocco: Problems and prospects of teaching Tamazight
Mohammed Errihani A1
A1
Abstract:
The present paper examines the new language policy of teaching Berber (Tamazight) in Moroccan schools, which came into effect in the fall of 2003 when Tamazight was for the first time introduced in some 300 elementary schools across the country. This study aims primarily at discussing the status of this language policy while it is still in its initial stages of implementation. The findings discussed here are based on a qualitative research conducted in Morocco around the end of 2004 and the beginning of 2005. The data was collected mostly through interviews and classroom observation. The interviews were conducted with several members of IRCAM, representatives of the Ministry of Education, inspectors and teachers of Tamazight, high school teachers, university professors as well as a large sampling of the Moroccan population, both Arabs and Imazighen. The classroom observations, which included both levels one and two of Tamazight, took place in several elementary schools, mostly in the region of Fez.

Thnaks, Krim.

Sorry for the typos
Yani