Morocco # English board

A phenomenon is developping among Moroccans, a substantial number is turning to christianity, more towards protestantism than catholicism though.
I've never met any of them but, the more I analyse it, the more I understand their choice. Islam is static, glued in its quagmire of traditions and hatred and now a radicalism that seems to be gaining ground and pulling the dogma more towards a black hole.
Enlightened muslims are hard to find and are attacked when they dare preach an openess or a return to the roots of the search for knowledge, which made Islam great, once upon a time.
The excuse thrown in the face of the undeniable fact of these conversions is a quest for emigration, it may be the case for some but I don't believe that's all there to it. Something is happening, a shift, a symptom of something deeper, a thirst for spirituality that the current radicalism exhibited by the muslim dogma is not answering. See article.


Moroccan Christians celebrate Christmas in secret
By Mouhsine El-Hassouni


dpa German Press Agency
Published: Wednesday December 13, 2006

By Mouhsine El-Hassouni, Rabat- "I discovered Christianity by accident," a young Moroccan woman says. "I found a Bible on my night table in a French hotel room, and what I read appealed to me. On the same trip, I met a Moroccan Christian, and we had a long discussion."

The woman, who wants to remain anonymous and whom we'll call Lina, has converted to Christianity.

But like hundreds of her sisters and brothers in faith, she has to practise her religion secretly in Muslim Morocco.

At the moment, Moroccan Christians are preparing to celebrate Christmas clandestinely at home, possibly in the presence of a pastor who also has to hide his faith.

"We have to live as if we were criminals," says a young Christian woman from Casablanca. People who reveal their conversion risk being banished by their families and marginalized by their communities.

The number of Moroccan Christians is impossible to determine exactly, but one thing seems certain: practically all of them are protestants.

"Protestantism is an individual choice, while one becomes a Catholic at birth," a convert called Sofia says.

The Christians are divided between those who perform their rites in Arabic and those who do so in French. The two groups have little contact with each other.

Some of the Christians discovered their faith accidentally, while others have been converted by churches, mostly Baptists from the United States, who send dozens of missionaries annually to Morocco.

The churches also use websites and donate tens of thousands of dollars annually to associations and people spreading their doctrine.

"Some people may convert that way, but I have never been offered money in exchange for conversion," Sofia says. "The authorities need to urgently open a dialogue with the country's Christians in order to prevent people from joining sects," she adds.

Converts are baptized secretly in Morocco's churches, which are reserved for foreigners.

Converts like Sofia stress that they do not want their faith to offend Moroccan society or Islam. Moroccan law does not prohibit conversions to other religions, although only Judaism is recognized officially in addition to Islam.

The Moroccan authorities are aware of the Christians' activities, and appear to have become more tolerant of them.

"Earlier, police used to call us for questioning and watch us closely, almost harassing us," Lina explains. "Now it feels as if they wanted to protect us from aggressions by (Muslim) fanatics."

Lina does not, however, know of any Christian who have been attacked or threatened.

© 2006 dpa German Press Agency



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2007 11:22 by chelhman.

Chelhman
At the beginning of the piece one can read:
We have to live as if we were criminals," says a young Christian woman from Casablanca. People who reveal their conversion risk being banished by their families and marginalized by their communities.


A the end one can read :
Lina does not, however, know of any Christian who have been attacked or threatened.

So why hiding ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2007 09:31 by Krim.

Hi Krim,

I don't really know, I can only assume given what I know of moroccan society that a conversion to Christianity wouldn't be applauded, so hiding is understandable.
Lina says attacked or threatened, the first sentence speaks of banishment of marginalization, so it makes sense.
As far as I'm concerned, faith is a personal matter and every choice should be respected. Why should a person converting to Islam be cheered and another converting to Christianity or Judaism be vilified ?
But if the forum next door is any indication, I can understand the need for secrecy.
For the last 20 years or so, we've been so busy fending off the bigotry and racism in front of us, we've let one grow amongst us, and to me, our looks far worse because it still hasn't been admitted.

I agree totaly with you Chelhman. Bur in the piece by Mouhsine El-Hassouni,somehow coherence ????.

Oh my God, it's unbelievable what you wrote !!! How can you say that staghfirallah ? Islam is the best religion, all truth is written in the Qora'ane al karim. So, all those Moroccans, for me, are silly, because they trust in statues, in images..., I feel afraid when I come into Churchs, it's cold and I do not have the same feelings as in Moskees where your heart feels so good, so quite...
I heard that some North American guys go to North Africa with the idea to make some people change their faith.., giving them money and confirming them that one day they'll live also the American dream, they'll have a visa to the US....
I'm always so sad to hear such news and I'm so angry also... I don't know how to explain my love for Allah tbt3llah, for Mohamed rassoul Allah, for Ibrahim 3laihi salam, for all the sahaba 3alaihi ou salam. Islam respects women and give them their rights in opposite with what Western countries and their people think.
A 3oudoubilah imini cheitane irajim... It's a shame for those people who changed their religion, their faith. Morocco has always been the nation of muslim values and I hope this country will stay forever muslim.

FICHTRE, drunk with our faith are we ?
You are exactly the kind of people that give Islam a bad name. What makes your faith superior to others ? The path for spirituality is multiple and differs from one human to another. Maybe you're among the people who think Islam is just a bunch of rules and regulations, do this, do that, this is halal, this is haram. At this rate, Islam is going to keep hemorraging its best and brightest, in a few decades we'll be left the moronic and the violent.

I feel afraid when I come into Churchs, it's cold and I do not have the same feelings as in Moskees where your heart feels so good, so quite...

Do not go to churches



I heard that some North American guys go to North Africa with the idea to make some people change their faith.., giving them money and confirming them that one day they'll live also the American dream, they'll have a visa to the US....


Why not if they can improve their life



Islam respects women and give them their rights in opposite with what Western countries and their people
think.

Watch Saudia Arabia


It's a shame for those people who changed their religion, their faith.

It is not your business.Every human should be free to believe or not believe or change his belief.
If you are happy in your believes. It is fine and I am happy for you. So let´s others look for their hapiness. May be they are wrong may be not. It is not the business of others



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2007 10:39 by Krim.

One adds a posting to the Forum so that everyone can join in and express their views. To go and suppress their beliefs by pointing the fingers at them is wrong and out of order. You don’t think guys you are using the same style of conversation that you don’t want to be associated with?

Going back to the subject, I read with interest the article. I think there are so many factors feeding this phenomena and I do know that it is happening everywhere (people are changing directions all times). It is up to them what they do with themselves and we can’t judge anyone because we are not perfect ourselves. I would like to point out that there is a huge big difference between Islam and Muslims. There is nothing wrong with Islam and it is not static but Muslims are.

salam alaykum

Islam is fastest growing religion THAT IS A FACT (u may ask yourself WHY , I used to tease my family member by telling them there are many Christians or even Jews that REVERT to Islam and in the other hand they are some Muslim who turned to Christianity and most of them are Moroccan .

[www.turntoislam.com]

[www.cnn.com]

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happybrain
I would like to point out that there is a huge big difference between Islam and Muslims. There is nothing wrong with Islam and it is not static but Muslims are.

Happybrain,

I think your brain is happy indeed, because you got it right on the nose. If Muslims were following Muslim values (and I am NOT talking about hijab and beards but rather about behavior/mo3amala) then none of us would be questioning his/her own religion.

hello everybody,
first of all, happy new year1428 to all of you, i wish you the best.
i totally agree with Happybrain, the problem is in Muslims not Islam. We give a bad image of our religion. and as Yussuf Alislam( ex: (Cat stevens) said: i thank God for knowing Islam before knowing the muslims. we should make a clear cut between islam and muslims. take a look around you.
Before judging those who converted, let's ask ourselves, What pushed them to do so? Aren't we,i mean everyone, in a way or another, responsible for that?
let's try to avoid hasty jugdements and use our gift (brain) to analyze things correctly since we're axcellent only at pointing out others'mistakes as we view them.

Happy New Year to all.

Thank you Shireen for mentioning one of the most beautiful treasures in Islam: mo3mala. A simple concept, fantastic way of life and yet it seems that we have lost the way to it. And it is true what Shushita said about Yusuf Islam - example 3adim.

chelhman, your lack of faith is really annoying. you understand their choice? huh?
then do just like them. follow them already. they never understood the meaning of Islam if they left.

religion isnt a story, or a belief based on a feeling alone...

and more when we speak about Islam. Islam isnt just a religion... it's also a way of life... a culture...

once your inside this way of life, there is no way you would leave it... how can you betray someone who treat you like his brother?

these guys are only lost souls... i dont mean to disrepect christianity... it's just that Christianity gives nothing new...

i really dont see it as normal, how can a Muslim turn Christian? how? how can a Muslim turn into a man who thinks that Jesus was god? how can a Muslim believe in the trinity? how a Muslim who believes in justice can turn into a Christian supporting the Zionists?

and you understand them? go ahead then, explain to me plz... because i dont. i honestly dont.

LeMask
I just want to tell you that you have your way to think and feel about religion which is different from Chelhman. You may have problems understanding things others will have, In fact, problems understanding your way of thinking.The questions you are asking about christianity can also be asked about Islam or about any religion. Yeh these still open questions........without answer



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2007 09:20 by Krim.

i can understand that Krim, but still, i have answers to some questions.
and there is things a Muslim shouldnt be asking himself, because they are part of the basis of Islam.
if you dont understand these, you are really a very poor Muslim.

Chelhman expressed doubts about the very foundation of our religion in other threads.
i respect neutrality, but is a Muslim neutral? are we really neutral? not, we have a side, and a clear one. and this side, is the side of god.

if we can understand a Christian, we shouldnt understand a Muslim turning into a Christian. it's total non-sense...

i will give an example, but if a Christian reads me, plz dont feel insulted. it's a very simple example of a very complex concept.

you take a slave and a free man.
if you ask the slave "is it normal for you to have a master" and that he answers "yes"... i'm not mad at him, he was a slave all his life. i CAN understand that.
but to see a free man, who was born free. choose a master... this is madness... it's NOT acceptable.

to see a who man said "god is unique and i dont mistake him with his messenger (Jesus and the other prophets)" turn into a man who mistakes the messenger with god...

it's CRAZY... so, the answer is simple. he was never Muslim... he had the word "Muslim" written on his paper work... maybe... but he wasnt Muslim. only a Muslim who lost touch with reality (turned crazy) could do such thing... i cant even start to understand that...

but Chelhman, god bless him, is smart enough to understand that. so please share. because i'm seriously and honestly lost...

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chelhman, your lack of faith is really annoying. you understand their choice? huh?
then do just like them. follow them already. they never understood the meaning of Islam if they left.
religion isnt a story, or a belief based on a feeling alone...
and more when we speak about Islam. Islam isnt just a religion... it's also a way of life... a culture...
once your inside this way of life, there is no way you would leave it... how can you betray someone who treat you like his brother?
these guys are only lost souls... i dont mean to disrepect christianity... it's just that Christianity gives nothing new...

i really dont see it as normal, how can a Muslim turn Christian? how? how can a Muslim turn into a man who thinks that Jesus was god? how can a Muslim believe in the trinity? how a Muslim who believes in justice can turn into a Christian supporting the Zionists?
and you understand them? go ahead then, explain to me plz... because i dont. i honestly dont.

My lack of faith ? You mean the difference of approach ? Faith is not something to be quantified.
The way you speak of islam is like the mafia, once you're in, you can't leave.
I'm always amazed at the arrogance and the stupidity of people who applaud those who convert to Islam and spit on those who convert to other faiths.
Faith is a personal matter, it evolves and it is not something written in stone.

We've had this conversation before, Islam is not a cult, you treat it like a cult with quasi-military rules.
You claim you don't mean disrespect towards Christians but you seem to despise them or at the very least seem to think that their beliefs are misguided. There's nothing more dangerous than people who are convinced they're holding the truth and everyone else is wrong.
Have you read the Bible or the Torah ? Or is the interest in other faiths beneath you ?

How can a Muslim turn to Christianity ? Just by reading you, you epitomize everything that is wrong right now with some Muslims, you're intolerant, arrogant with unfortunately for you no reason to be, and your knowledge of others is tantamount to what a child in primary school would know.
Take your remark on Christians and Zionists for instance, you take one small group of US evangelists and lump all of Christianity in it. And it's not even a religious move, it was a political move with neocons pulling the strings to put the village idiot in the White House.

If you're wondering about islamophobia (fear of Islam), look no further, your way of thinking is the root cause of that phenomena. You are intolerant and hostile to anything you cannot fathom.
Like Shushita said when mentioning Cat Stevens, you're the kind of muslim people are better off not knowing if they're interested in Islam or any religion for that matter.

As for Christians, here's something you should have known from the Quran :


[60:8] Allah does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. Allah loves the equitable.


"Equitable" being the operative word here, do you think you've been equitable in your statements about "slave" and "masters" ?

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We've had this conversation before, Islam is not a cult, you treat it like a cult with quasi-military rules.
You claim you don't mean disrespect towards Christians but you seem to despise them or at the very least seem to think that their beliefs are misguided. There's nothing more dangerous than people who are convinced they're holding the truth and everyone else is wrong.

indeed man. but let me remind you an important thing. we are Muslims, and Islam have connexions with Christianity. HUGE ones... and one of them tells us that the Christians are indeed misguided... they mistake Jesus with god... it's our version. they ARE misguided. but we arent mad against them, they are the people of the book(just like the jews). they are NOT godless people, they arent evil, they arent like the "others"...

but they believe in the 10 commandments, and they fail in one, because they associate god with Jesus.

but to see a Muslim who had in his education, the necessary concepts to distinguish god from his messengers... turn into a Christian, there is a HUGE regression... he did a step backwards...

what he have done is WRONG... and as a Muslim, he knows it.

you know man, i was in school, and we studied Islamic education... like a lot of kids, and they told me that the people leaving Islam should be condemned to death. i was sure at 100% that it was part of my religion some months ago. until i read about the meeting between the pope (the actual) and a mufti from Algeria, and the mufti spoke about some versets in the holy Koran talking about "freedom in religion"...

and this versets match in my mind. it would be really "evil" to sentence to death a "lost soul"...but still, they are lost souls... and nothing pushs me to respect their choice (sorry, not a hippie)... they are doing a mistake. i dont respect their choice, i just dont care. because i can do nothing for them... or even against them if i wanted to...

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How can a Muslim turn to Christianity ? Just by reading you, you epitomize everything that is wrong right now with some Muslims, you're intolerant, arrogant with unfortunately for you no reason to be, and your knowledge of others is tantamount to what a child in primary school would know.

this is non-sense... i'm intolerant? so be it. so? where is the problem with Islam? i was made by Islam? Islam says that i'm the one speaking for god?
so what? if all the Muslims turns into evil people, does it mean that Islam is evil?
no religion holds the market when it comes to good and evil, tolerance and intolerance... there is good and bad people everywhere...

but still, i keep my position, you CANT be a Muslim and turn into a Christian... unless you were a "funny" Muslim... a really funny one.

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Take your remark on Christians and Zionists for instance, you take one small group of US evangelists and lump all of Christianity in it. And it's not even a religious move, it was a political move with neocons pulling the strings to put the village idiot in the White House.

excuse me dude, i just made an example... can a Muslim turn into a Zionist Christian? using your logic. why not? a Muslim can turn into a Christian... one step further... and he turns into a Zionist... why is it so hard to believe? are you intolerant? (kidding)...
but using your logic, everything is possible. and we have to be tolerant and accept anything...

but i'm calling your faith, if you have any... god, the entity who created you. told you that there was no god but god. that Moses, Jesus and Mohammed are ONLY his messengers. that he Muslims are the ones who believe in that.
so how dare you to just accept to see a Muslim turn into a man denying the message of our prophet (while he knows about it)... and to mistake god with Jesus?

it's hard to take... but you accept it too easily... i agree with you that they should be punished, that they should have the right to say it without fearing anything. but still... you dont have to respect that. they have done a mistake. may god show them the right path, because we are powerless now... but it's a sad story...

Just to add to this discussion, I think where we are now is based on choices that we made in the past - Particularly, around the 14th century when the Muslim Civilisation declined, notably, the fall of Spain.
Ulama (those with the knowledge) of that time decided themselves that in order to protect the Quran from misinterpretation, they agree to change some of the meanings. For example, Ilm (3ilm) which means ‘all knowledge’ was reduced to mean simply 'religious knowledge'. Thus, reducing the Muslim capacity to think AND SIMPLY DIGEST. In the same vein, Ijtihad (independent reasoning on matters of religion) gave way to taqlid (imitation)…what come after, is history. One of the miracles of The Quran is that it provides the Muslim with everything ‘anytime and everywhere’. Sadly, all interpretations of the Quran stayed frozen in the past. We become a frozen society, and definitely CLOSED.
So what is the why forward? Do we need to go back to the source of the problem and fix it? Or ‘should we just stand still and hope that something/anything will happen?

happybrain, maybe... but we have to save ourselves from this doctrine coming from the Occidental world saying that ignorance and religion walk hand in hand. religious knowledge is part of the general knowledge.

we can have both at the same time, you can be religious and a scientist. the problem is with these people who deny their own religion to look modern following this laic movement from the occidental world.

we have a very different culture. and our history is no way comparable with theirs. so their conclusions arent welcome. watch out from blind copy cat.

the Christian world suffered from a religious clergy. kings talking for god. we had our share of these. but still, our religion never installed a tyrant on our heads. in fact, the religious knowledge is the only thing protecting us from these things. we all know how the Ulemas (i dont mean the group we actually know) suffered from the tyrants in the past because they were defying their powers...

we arent Christians, we have our own religion, and our own history. dont use blindly anything coming from them.

the problem comes in fact, from some "occidentalised Muslims" who are really confused. some try to make Alcohol legal... just to look "modern" because their "religion is freedom loving"... we are Muslims, we are NOT islam sellers... so watch out, dont adapt the "product" because it's NOT a product...

Le Mask
Forget for a moment the west, the christians and all the supposed ennemies and read carefully what Happybrain wrote.
The way you respond to Chelhman and to Happybrain illustrate exactly this kind of thinking of our so called frozen and closed society. Unfortunatly many brains are shaped this way. No one is asking you to immitate these christians like drinking alcohol or whatever. However you need to to be open minded and learn the positiv things.These exchange of khowledge is taking place between all cultures and those doing so are advancing see china, Japan, Europe..etc...

Krim, i understand that... but you have to be a free thinker first.
what do you call developpement? what is good and evil? what is modernity? is China or Japan really growing?

and there is Muslims trying to make alcohol legal... i know many of these guys.
and yes, we have to be "open minded", and we are. the Christian world suffered from a clergy... this clergy took their freedom and installed a tyrant on their heads (kings and the feodal system)... their religion was used to manipulate them.
but they are smart people, and with time, they invented the things they needed. example? laicity and the separation between the church and the state.

these two principles (to just talk about these two) are a big part of their culture now.

but are these principles "useful" in our countries? in our system? with our religion? dont you see it? we are different. we dont need that. open minded? of course... but not blind...

separation between the church and the state? okay, but find the church to begin with. we dont have any.

and the list is long... their values and systems are very good... for them... we can study them. we can respect them and understand them. but we have to agree on, one major point... we dont need them.

and Krim, i have a girl in my team who is calling herself Muslim and saying that Islam doesnt forbid Alcohol... she is very popular among christians... i'm not mad at her, she is a friend afterall... but come on... alcohol is bad, so it's forbidden... simple logic... and where is the point to keep up talking with such people? i just avoid the topic.

this is not how i see the perfect society... and in my perfect society, the Muslims who turn into Christians arent prosecuted. but they arent respected neither... they did a mistake. let god judge them. as long as they are honest people, they should have nothing to fear...

May ask you LeMask

How old are you ?

i'm 22... why?

LeMask, as always, you're missing the point. This is not a comparative study between Islam and Christianity, both have their merits.
The movement towards Christianity is more of a sociological phenomena. Some do it to emigrate, others are tired of the hypocrisy of the muslim mindset, the prohibitions or the narrowmindedness.

Let's take your example : you spit on anything coming from the West, reading you, you'd think you were talking about a plague. But you don't mind taking advantage of the social benefits, schools, universities, unemployment paychecks if you ever find yourself fired or fair courts of law when confronted with a injustice.
Now, isn't that hypocritical ? To top it off, I'll bet you wouldn't mind being naturalized, if you haven't done it already.


If you were truly a believer, you would pack your stuff and leave to a muslim land, taste the wonders of what a rigid muslim society has to offer.
Once again, faith is a personal matter, learn to separate between faith and dogma, these are two different things. The muslim dogma, as Happybrain pointed out, is frozen and has been for centuries now. It's no surprise that people are drawn towards another one. One that has taken upon itself to reform on many occasions during the last centuries.

In any case, the way I see it, you've forfeited your right to criticize the West, as long as you keep lavishing into a western society, you can't have it both ways. Let me know when you decide to move to Iran or Saudia Arabia, we'll have a true debate.

I hear what you are saying LeMask and do respect your point of view. Islam to my mind is the least understood religion in the world and yet is practised by billions of people around the world hamdolillah. It is true to say that some other non-Muslim regards us as fundamentalist, terrorist, backward thinking.etc. Do you really blame them? I don’t because of our mixed up views about things. One say to us do that, the other say don’t do that. We are killing each other and still you want us to enlighten the non-Muslims. We need to lead people by example and I am sorry to hear that instead of empowering your friend you rather keep quiet and ignore her. I don’t like people when they say I don’t want to loose any more energy with them. Patience my friend and Allah stressed it many many times in the Quran.
To illustrate, a simple example to how Muslims used Mo3amalat to teach people things:
Two Sahaba went to the Mosque and before they start their Ablution, they noticed that a guy next to them was doing it wrong. Do you go to him and tell him don’t do or do this or else. How do you think he will react? Instead, one of the Sahaba start imitating exactly what the guy is doing while sitting next to him. The other Sahaba stopped his friend and showed him ‘how to do it the right way’. The guy witnessed all of this and he knew that it was meant for him. Beat that…..How many times do you see people moving broken glasses from the street in order not to harm the pedestrians?

okay, chelhman, i'm reading you carefully. in my opinion (excuse me for putting my opinion without you asking you) (i'm judging you here, but it's not final)... you are confused. confused between many concepts.
first, i'm not making comparition between Islam and Christianity.

i have nothing against Christians. in fact, i say that today, they are better than us. they live better than us, and care more about the others. while we are agressive and hateful (in general) these days. nothing very good can get out of our minds right now, we are pissed off...

but, i'm a Muslim. and i have a muslim way to see the world. what is a Christian? it's someone not believing in Mohammed, and also a perso who see Jesus as god... i wont ask for more details. it's not the point. what is important for me. is that he shares the room of god with a man. and doesnt believe in the last prophet.

it's NOT a crime. he lived that way since he was born. it's part of his nature now. and he is in fact, a good person (because of the teachings of Christianity)... so i have no reason to fight him, hate him, get mad at him...

but let's take a Muslim... who believes in god. and believes in Mohammed. if someday, this guy deny all the teaching of our prophet. and take Jesus as god...
i'm not going to be happy for him... he made a terrible mistake. and i dont want to see the others just think for a second that what he have done is right... or smart... or respectable...

not, he did a mistake. a HUGE one. i'm angry... i dont like this guy. i dont want him next to me. or next to my people. the only defense i have for him, is to say that he is crazy... or that he was never a Muslim... because he shows a lack of knowledge about Islam or a huge weakness...

if he can turn christian, then he can turn into something worse... i dont know. a Nazi. a KKK Christian... a Zionnist Jewish... a Satanist... i dont know...

in fact, i have more respect toward the people who lose faith... it's in their nature... they cant believe something they cant see... there is people like that... i know many... and i'm sad for them, they are lost souls aswell. but i keep hope that if they are doing their duties as "honest people"... god will treat them fairly.

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The movement towards Christianity is more of a sociological phenomena. Some do it to emigrate, others are tired of the hypocrisy of the muslim mindset, the prohibitions or the narrowmindedness.

ah great... so you have to fight this movement. how could we survive if we lose quality people? how can i fight the extremists if the moderate try to lie to get a better life? how can i fight the narrowminded people if the moderate flee and hide?
but, i will agree with the extremists, a lot of prohobitions are good for us. if they dont like it. i dont force them to follow me. but they will not be my brothers.

example: the society would be better without drugs and alcohol. if they are aware that it's better for them. then they forgot an important teaching of our prophet Mohammed saying that we shouldnt hate something good for us.

and it's arrogant to accuse people of hypocrisy... we dont know what is in their minds.

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Let's take your example : you spit on anything coming from the West, reading you, you'd think you were talking about a plague. But you don't mind taking advantage of the social benefits, schools, universities, unemployment paychecks if you ever find yourself fired or fair courts of law when confronted with a injustice.
Now, isn't that hypocritical ? To top it off, I'll bet you wouldn't mind being naturalized, if you haven't done it already.

excuse me one minute. i dont spit on everything coming from the West. but there i dont have faith in a lot of things. you speak about naturalization... what is the meaning of that? where is the problem?

i'm not a Morrocan, i'm a Muslim. a freeman... i dont belong to anyone. Morroco or France... they are just lands. Morroco is the land where i belong. i was born there. my family is there. my property is there.
it have nothing to do with the paperwork... i dont care about what the Morrocan state say...
but i care about the French state. here i'm a foreigner, it's not my place. i'm here as a guest. i can give advices, but i wont fight to change things... in fact, i dont care about nationality... i care about the people in front of me. what is in their minds...

i dont think by political choices (democracy or others), i think by human quality... i dont cut the society into leftwingers and rightwingers... i cut it into honest hard working people, criminals, capitalist slavers, feodal slavers (land owners), political slavers... egoist scum, racist scum and more...

today, i'm a slave. i'm owned by Morroco. i know that the French master treats his slaves much better.i would be pretty dumb to not want to join them? but i'm a fool. i love the other slaves back in Morroco. i think that they want me. or even need me. so i dont want to be naturalized. but i would accept one.
because being French adds to my right, and takes nothing from me (following what i know of course)...

and i'm here to study... to see the world... it's what we are supposed to do, not?

happybrain, i agree with them sometimes. but there is extremist Muslims who are enlightned. they speak about pure freedom. they speak about faith (not in god alone, but in the system)...
some people see them as backward, because what they speak about is old.
but think carefully, wasnt the CowBoy with a gun in the desert a freeman? a total freeman?

and excuse me happybrain, but i do.

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We need to lead people by example and I am sorry to hear that instead of empowering your friend you rather keep quiet and ignore her.

i said that i avoid talking about these topics with her. but we cant ignore each others that much... in fact, i say that i disagree... answer the questions... that is all.

and in real life, i'm very silent, i dont have the energy to talk. honestly.

and what you said about the Sa7aba is pretty interesting.
i like indirect approachs. like the old way to speak about philosophy. when Plato and his followers used to use a long speech between two men to explain their ideas. it's a bit like the good and bad cop... but it's great. and very fun to read.

LeMask, I really enjoy the fact that you think I'm confused, like I already said : the arrogance of certainty

Anyhow, you're confusing dogma and faith, that's the source of your problem. A lot of muslims have faith but don't necessarily apply or agree with the dogma. Look around you, it's obvious, unless you keep talking only to people who validate your opinion. You won't find that here.

As for the people who go towards Christianity, they've chosen to walk another path, that doesn't mean they don't have faith, it's quite the opposite, their faith is probably choking in today's muslim environement. Ironically, you have no idea how much people who reason like you, are actually responsible for that hemorragy. Instead of seeing it as a symptom of something very wrong with today's muslim mindset and do some soul searching, you go on the defensive and treat them with contempt.
There is a whole world of knowledge and understanding beyond friday sermons and arab satellite channels hateful speeches, you should try it...

okay,chelhman...
can you put one thing your head? i dont watch Arabic TV channels... and i dont spend even a minute in the mosque...

but still, when you dont have faith, you read more about Islam. and if you look for "something different"... you wont find better in Christianity or Judaism...
i'm 100% certain of that... for the simple reason that Islam have an unique position toward these religions...

and you, as a Muslim, you have to understand me on this point.
how can a Muslim turn into a Christian??

and cut the speech about how "people like me" (like you you know me to begin with) are the "problem" of Islam...

we dont leave a religion because we dont like some people... you just dont...

"i dont like Osama Ben Laden, i'm so leaving this religion..." it's so dumb that i dont even think about it... am i going to convert if Michael Jackson converts to Islam? ... hellow... this is not a relevant argument...

you are confused Chelhman... you dont trust yourself and what you got...

Thank you LeMask for setting me straight, I was lost, you brought me back to the path. Wanna a beer ?

I am not sure if you have heard of a mother that said to her son:
'You weep like a women for what you could not hold as a man'. Striking words that still vibrate throughout the Muslim history. That was the time when the last Moorish king of Spain Boadbil knelt to King Ferdinand handing him the keys to the city. That was the fall of the Muslim civilisation and the begining of the enlightment age for the Europeans. They were in the darkness and we were in the light but sine then, the light is diming more and more. We need fresh bateries to empower the light or we will go blind and start pocking each others eye.