Ilhem2? you know the pillars of Islam. the Zakat? why we dont start the system? a 3% tax for the poors.
and we will have a way to solve this. and it will also decrease the terrorist threat on our country. less poverty, and less hate toward the state... Etc...
Who's exactly responsible? there're plenty of Moroccans living the same case or even worse, we always put the blame on the wrong person while we've got someone who shouls be the first to blame in cases like this, WHERE ARE YOU YA OMaR INB ALKHATTAB ? he who refused eating before one widow and her kids did ! he who used to wear an old thread full of patches and sewing-stitches since he's not sure a moslem somewhere in his once vast empire is not naked ! thanks Allah there's something we call "DEATH" ...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2007 04:48 by shelby.
Shelby... eum, dude, in general, i agree with you. but i cant here, because i dont even understand... can you tell me what is the link between misery and death please?
if you tell me that a lot of Morrocans (most) dont do the basics when it comes to help the poors... i wont disagree...
but i still dont see the link with death... can you explain please?
I think Shelby means that Death can sometimes be a blessing in the way that it spares you such a humiliation in your own country...And i think he is right.
I've just read this article and i'm totally flabbergasted. I start questioning wether i should ever go back to Morocco again...
comon on guys... do you mean suicide? it's ethically wrong to kill yourself because you are poor... in fact, killing yourself is wrong in any condition.
but we could work on a better distribution of the wealth...
my brother sent me pictures of some nice cars in Morroco... he saw a Hummer in front of "the Pacha" in Marrakesh... these cars cost something like 120k $...
there is tons of money in Morroco... the problem is somewhere else...
Salam All ! thank you Mrs Minniemouse, you got my point right on the nose ! thta's what i meant Mr LeMask, sometimes when you think about all the sufferings and all the pains a human may go thru during his life(misery, illness,...) death would be a blessing and don't get me wrong here i ain't talking about suicide, so sir, i'll explain: in a country like ours, and i assure you we're living in a real rich country, we've got enough money to make every single moroccan live a prosperous life ( a nice house, a car, and most of all a good system of social security if things go as it should be), but when you look at how bad things are in Morocco, when you see some people changing their cars as if they're changing their sox ( not any car of course), go shopping in europe on the weekends ... while others ...live in the johns, when you see the high layer of society in a moslem country (and that's important)drive limos, spend a hell of money everywhere, build palaces and give out a bowl of harira on some "dead people walking" in Ramadhan, and starve'em all the year, i think we should think twice before saying Morocco's the best country in the world (as they used to say on TV some years ago to promote tourism and what tourism? everybody knows what makes tourists come to Morocco the three S's : sun, seas and ..SEX ) .......Deathis a blessing because it's called "qaher al laddat"( pleasures-killer), we are all doomed to one final day in our lives, and thats' what balances between all categories of people.. "Janazatu Rajul" ringing any bells?
i dont know. i dont put death in this level... it's the end of life... poverty is part of life, wealth too... but death is only the end of life. it's not a solution.
for me, life is a test. so god will keep it as a test. so even if these poor people "disappear" like if it was by magic...
another social class will take their role as "poor people"... as long as we dont want to take care of the poor people, there will be awful things like that...
I was talking with my father and my grand father about the past. and he told me that sometimes they couldnt eat bread as they want. they had only palms trees in their lands, so they had enough dates... but when it comes to eating bread, meat or vegetables (very rare)... it was for a few occasions.
and that they had only a few Djellabas as clothes. and they had the habit of turning them on the fire to kill the insects (blood sucking insects)...
and even with that, they were in a relatively fine family. there was many families in their village who had it much harder than that...
and when i was young, i was very sad to see my dear mother (may she rest in peace), hide the chocolate in a closet (with a key) so (my brother and me) wouldnt eat the whole chocolate in the house in one day...
and it wasnt really about the price, but just to not get fat...
but i know, that someday, they will make really cheap chocolate... and it will fat-free... and when i will tell my kids "you know, when i was young, my mother was hiding the chocolate from us."... and they will think "wow, life was really tough back then in the 90s..."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2007 01:46 by LeMask.
LeMask, no i certainly didn't mean suicide. Life is a gift from God and we should do everything we can to cherish it but if no one cares about our life then what's the purpose of living? when i said death is a blessing, i meant death that comes from God of course. If i were in this poor man's shoes, i would ask God to have mercy on me and take me away from this jungle where humans are worse than the wildest animals. I still can't get over this story and everytime i try to imagine (but cannot actually imagine) the way this man and his family are living, i get a shiver and i'm about to go sick. Where are we going with this? and how many people like this man are there in Morocco? and they dare printing that on his ID card???? is this how they are promoting the image of Morocco? is this how they hope to access the EU? talk about fighting terrorism!! if i were this man, i wouldn't think twice before bombing and killing and creating mayhem.
Guys, seriously? what do you think is the solution to end this? what can moroccans abroad do? i would love to hear from people who are ready to take action..
LeMask, sorry to hear about your mum. Allah yerhemha.
thanks Minniemouse for my poor mother. she was a gently soul, treated all people like her kids, or just the kids of another mother... but she is a better world i guess. i'm not worried about her. i know she is fine. thanks again.
you rise up many interesting topics.
what do we know? we know that only a very few people in extreem conditions are "dying" or "starving" in Morroco. but some live in a real misery. and these guys arent the most unlucky.
if you saw how life is in some places... some improvised housings are really horrible. you have the dirty water (used in toilets) running from the top of the area to the lowest area... bad smell, awful place for the kids...
but a lot of these people gave up on their lands in the 3roubiya to try their luck in the city... they sold the lands they had from their parents for ridiculous prices... just to make "easy money" in the city.
they gamble... they play for the big win. i cant fully support these guys. they arent poor, they lost everything...
and another problem... the false poverty. people who are rich, but beg for money in the streets... they make more money that some people working for the state (teachers or policemen)... you heard the story about the thieves who attack the beggers in the streets? why they do that? because they find tons of money sometimes... you shake a poor beggar in a dark corner and you get 3000dh... or much more... i think that the record was 100.000dh... she was saving it for something...
and you speak about terrorism... yeah, with such misery, potential suicide bombers are easy to recruit... there is no miracles, in a capitalist world, you accept social injustice... and you make desperate people ready for anything to make money... or to get revenge...
what can do the Morrocans Abroad? ... not leaving... how will be the country if all the good people leave? the country need you. you have a micro-universe to save... dont leave it. vote, talk, educate, be serious, work hard... but dont hide...
I will start from the end of your message. You said to vote, vote for who? how can i vote for someone if i don't have access to their agenda? if i'm not even sure they are who they claim to be? and we know by experience that MPs are never truly representative of the people who vote for them. Talk, tolk to who? who would listen? i can talk to you and to Shelby and the others here, but can we do something really? not because we don't want to but because we are helpless creatures in a dangerous world, our voices are weak next to some forces who govern the country. Yes we could spare some money, help 1 person or 2, 10 even but that's not a solution. what about the millions of people who starve to death? last winter, 100s of villagers died from the cold!!!!!! can you believe it? in 2007! waht can i or you do for these people? it's much more complicated that we think, and it needs a serious reform of the system and a change of mentalities. Selfishness is our worst enemy, it's like being all in 1 small boat looking for safety and everyone squeezes and pushes the others in the sea to get there first.
I wasn't aware of the beggars who are actually rich people and who get beaten up by thieves. this is worse than any scenario Hollywood could think of. I don't know if you watched a brazilian film called city of god, i always thought it could not get any worse than that,now i know Morocco is by far the worst!
my dear Minniemouse... i just know one thing. i fear no man on earth. because what a man can do, i can undo it. nothing is above me on this earth but the will of god.
who to vote for? just make a list of the available choices... in one side, we have the representatives we always had... will it be a surprise if we vote for them? we can already tell what is going to happen if we vote them in.
and then, we have these new pseudo moderate-young-modern-laic-capitalists... and it will be a modern politic... just like in France, but with a poor country and tons of dumb people and a huge corruption...
and then, we have some extreem left wingers... Islamists and such... for some reasons, the people love them. the corrupt people fear them. the powers controling the country are doing everything to stop them. the media dont stop crying about their lack of tolerance and understanding...
these are the ONLY ones having a "little" potentiel of moving things up... good or bad...
do you feel lucky? ^^ i will stop here, i dont want to tell you who to vote for (cuz i already did lol)
talk to who? good, talk with Shelby... he is a nice guy. and not a weakling. i'm glad to talk to him here, because i'm soooooo sick and tired of weak people who are afraid to talk... to look nice and fashion (modern)... i'm glad he did, i thought it was alone to sometimes questions these "cute" ideas society is feeding us... day and night... while we SEE with own eyes that whatever the ideas they are using... it's not working... so yeah, speak up... bark... bite... i dont care. but dont shut it.
and you tell me that helping 1 or 2 people is a solution, and then you tell me that 100 people died because of the cold weather...
first, IT'S NORMAL... old people die because of the cold weather... i come from the area of Errachidia... and every winter, we hear about the old people who died... they die in the cold season... what a coincidence... of course they do. they are weak and tired. and when life is hard, they die... you mean that we can do better than that?
of course we can... but let me tell you another story. my family owns a little farm in Guelmima (60km from Erachidia). and the ancestral house is made of dirt. a mix of plants, sand and other materials. and the building is a wonderful contruction. my granfather (god bless his soul) was used to walk around the house every year to fix any breach by hand.
and i remember this house very well. it was cold in the summer. and rather warm in the winter. it was freezing outside, at the second you pass the door... it's warm. and in the summer... you are burning outside (even the ants put their "stomachs" on their heads to protect themselves from the sun) but at the second, you pass the door... its cool.
but guess what? to be a modern "family"... they built a new house. with a little pool... a modern house. but guess what? in the summer... you shut off the air conditionning for 30minutes... and you are in an oven... and the winter... you cant put your head on a pillow... cause it's freezing... and you have to use a heater to survive... because it's impossible to live that way.
and for the first time... they had energy bills above 1000dh... a joke... the price for the modern life... they spent tons of money to buy solar energy kits and such... and they are still paying the price...
City of god was an interesting movie... but in Rio, it's far worse... some police men make death squads, they enter these areas, gather up the kids (homeless) and butcher them in some remote places... to get rid of the crime...
LeMask, do i feel lucky? no actually i feel scared, looking at your list of possible parties that can represent me, i don't feel safe at all, neither with leftists, nor with the moroccan tories, certainly a lot less with the pseudo religious. so if you don't want to tell me who you are voting for, i don't mind telling you that i am not voting at all. and please don't snap back, we're all entitled to our choices Yes i can talk but i don't bark and i don't bite (i'm a girl not a dog )
Sorry but i don't get your point about the people who died from the cold. Are you telling me it's a normal thing that old people get old and die??? Actually i forgot to mention that the people i referred to were mainly children in remote villages. you know those little kids, girls in scarves and boys in little jellabas, with torn shoes, dirty faces and heavy bags who walk 15km to get to school and in the way back pop to get water home. Yes, these are the kids i'm talking about, who died because of the cold. Doesn't that make you want to scream? plus even if they were old, i'm so sorry but it's not normal that these people die from the cold. its like you are telling me we cannot change things because they were like that when we were born so we have to keep them! old people should be looked after not left to die from the cold. Some of my friends here are still amazed that in Morocco we don't have central heating in the cities!! and instead of getting supplies of gaz from our neighbour Algeria, we instead get in war over futile issues, if this is not selfishness incarnated then i don't know what it is...
i wont... i dont vote neither... i think it's ridiculous to choose who is going to rule the others... they can all vote for any group they want. unless this group is doing exactly what i want, i wont follow it. i dont respect the voting system... it's dumb and oppressive in essence.
and you mistaking, you can bark and bite... like a dog protecting it's puppies... when you are pissed off, bark... let people hear that you are mad. do everything you can... but dont get into trouble.
and about the cold... it's not really what i meant. i'm just telling you that people will die because of the weather... it's natural. when the days are hard, weak people will die. it's natural. unless we spend millions in heating system and other millions in energy sources... we will lose people that way. it's sad, but very natural. and no, i dont want to scream because of that.
it's a natural death. i'm for a return to the primitive life... we are destroying our planet. and if we push our luck too far, the whole mankind could disappear in a near future. if the poles melt... millions of people will die. and the survivors will live miserably and billions will die because of wars, riots, crimes, poverty, starvation and lack of medical equipement and infrastructure...
we cant afford right now to power up heating devices for everybody... we just cant afford it. we have to wait until we reach a much higher technological level... so we could make cheap and clean energy sources... until then. it will only be worse.
all we can do for these kids is to provide heavy clothing for this kind of situations...
and i'm sorry, but your friends are douche bags... they ask themselves "why people are poor? why they dont work to make money?"... answer? "they work all day you douche bag... they just make 10 times less money for the same work as you." "why they let their kids starve to death? why they dont eat some bread?"... "they are out of bread you douche bag." "if they are out of bread? why they dont eat some meat or chocolate? it's always better than nothing." "there is NO FOOD THERE, YOU MORON." "they are all sick? why they dont go to the doctor?" "there is NO enough DOCTORs for everybody THERE."
i'm joking, but do you really think that we can afford to make a heating device in every home?
listen, put this thing in your head... to make one rich person, you need 500 poor people to work for him. to make 1 ultra rich person, you need 500 rich people to work for him. Etc...
it's a pyramid...
to get a ring with a diamond for your girl friend... 10 Africans have to die in Liberia (blood diamonds they call them)... to put some gaz in your car to go see your mom... 1 Iraqi have to die. to put water in a swimming pool in an Israeli house, 10 Palestinian families have to to ration water for 1week... etc... etc...
i agree with Minniemouse in all what she said here, Morocco's by far the worst, you'd tell me about some countries like Bangladesh, Niger, Madagascar you name it ..., no ! Morocco's a different thing, we're talking about a country of a thousand weird incoherences between poor and rich people/ regions, those beggars you were talking about Mr Lemask aren't the ideal example of all poors living in Morocco, i assure you that millions of people really live under the line of $1 per day ! i've seen samples of these people in many cities in Morocco and believe me dude you'd have the goose bumps when you realize how hard their life is, and they're no crooks, we must agree on something here Mr LeMask: in Morocco we've got a problem, a serious one, i've been to Algeria and believe it or not i've never seen any beggars ( let's say some 5/6 at most in all places i've visited in Al3asima , Wahran, Sidi Bel3abbas ...) or any shoe-shiners not because algerians are living in prosperity but because they don't accept bowing to anybody ("Ma3andnash w makhassnash" as they say) while in Morocco people have lost their dignity and some are ready to "sell" their girls for a mere 10 dhs( e.g in some Atlas regions ) !!! how shameful ! voting is no solution either i actually lost all hope in these parties ruled by some old-farts since their creation right after the "istiklal", most parties are just palace's puppets and they play games on Moroccan to tear'em apart and spread their union, thanks God now we've got a wiser society who is not ready to get duped once again and all parties but islamic ones can't even gather up more than 100 members and they're full of quarrels....those who are supposed to act are hiding their money someplace in Switzerland and elsewhere d3inahom Lillah !
i never said that all the people who are beggin in the Morrocan streets were rich... but there is some professionals in the group. afterall, when we give 2dh to one of these people they dont give us a receipt and i dont see them making a declaration at the end of the year...
in fact, i think that the real poor people arent in the streets, but like you said in the poor regions.
The problem it's not the poverty or to be rolling in wealth, in my opinion the problem is the idea that we have in ordre to perceive the life. The wealth it's not the aim of each existence, the aim is to be honnest with your self. The familly that lived in the toilet, it's really a situtaion that minimize the image of our country in the world and also our sensitivity as a human persons.
But the question is how to strive this poverty in our country ? The solution is you and me, you that criticize with no stop and no hesitation the reality, innovate a structure which could be a point of help, assemble all synergy in ordre to strive and to fight the poverty. To criticize it's very easy but to think about your part of construction and development of your country which is in process of organisation of his economy is difficult.
To build a house we need a lot of things, similary in ordre to build a country we need all his component.
Critisicm is not always a bad thing. Before taking action, you first need to draw up an analysis, create a debate and share ideas, and once you agree on all the points you can start acting. We certainly can't do much in front of a situation such as this man's tragedy, but we can discuss issues, the possible causes that led him to end up like this. Talking to people makes you also be aware of things you didn't know or see before and this is a good thing in itself. of course we should all think of the best way to contribute, but thinking together is better than thinking alone. If we did not care we would not be here debating, we would be sharing jokes on other forums. So we'll carry on talking and critising constructively and positively until the light breaks in and who knows, one of us might just have that brilliant idea that will save the country lol (tm)
i'm in short of ideas here guys but let's put the finger on the pain spot and ask you who's to blame? i mean in first place that is ? not shikh al 7ouma ( al m'qaddam) of course, not the neighbors either, a higher rank for sure,a very higher one !
i'm in short of ideas here guys but let's put the finger on the pain spot and ask you who's to blame? i mean in first place that is ? not shikh al 7ouma ( al m'qaddam) of course, not the neighbors either, a higher rank for sure, a very higher one !
The gouv. that issued a peice of ID with WC as the home adress of one of its citizens is so brave. Hat down Mr Benmousa and co! and by the way the guy who typed in the address on the card is insane. I guess he was so stoned after a joint and a cup of tea...anyway ketrel el hem kaddehek
virtual_person? i actually dont agree with you. if your job is to put an adress on ID cards... it's not up to you to fix the problem of poverty. he gave this man a chance to get his mailing at least... always a good start.
and it can be an administrative error. to think that the man lives in a special housing in the toilet, because he is the janitor... i lived in a residence for a time, and the janitor was living in an area in the garage, made to store the sheeps for the aid (el 3id kbir)...
actually the problem is not the address in itself becuse they couldn't type something else but the exact place where he really lives, the question is how in hell come to happen that a family lives in public toilets in a so called " democratic/ Islamic country" ?
You're right Shelby. What i can't understand as well is how do public toilets in Morocco look like??? For i have never come across one and didn't know they existed!! I mean I have seen public toilets in many places in Europe and although they were clean for the majority,they were like rat holes. But in Morocco, all i know is that you might find toilets in public areas such as parks, zoos, shops maybe but not separate toilets just like that in the streets. Am I wrong??
there are not much public toilettes in Morocco...from my experience I don’t advise you to use it unless you really have to because they are mostly very dirty and smell horrible…if no one care about it?…
Hi Ilhem2, thanks for replying. So they do exist in Morocco!! they must be huge though if they can accomodate a wole family!!! my God, what type of life is this if you are telling me they smell horribly. Right i'm going to be sick again i know it lol.. This man and his family would be better living in the street..
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