Morocco # English board

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EL Jadida area was used for HLA genotyping and phylogenetic calculations.
This means doukkalis and berbers are real brothers and sisters and should stop making jokes about each other.
This study shows the strength of Islam and the arabic culture in converting these people to speak more arabic than berber. This in contrast to those who decided to stay in the mountains areas....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2006 09:55 by Krim.

Hi Krim,

I've read the pdf file before, it's been posted somewhere on the french speaking forum, I have to admit that from what I understood, it really means that Morocco has seen so many waves of immigration or invasion that it's now a melting pot, being amazigh (to use the proper term) or arab is more cultural than racial.
I'm achelhi, my maternal grandmother is an arab and you'll find that most moroccan families have at least one arab ancestor if they're imazighen or vice versa if they're arabs.
Anyway, racial purity usually means congenital malformations, look at the Mormons in the U.S, by intermarrying for so long, they now have a rate of 27 % of retarded children according to a recent study.

Vive Doukkala

This is real good news and priceless study in my view. Because, and I hope it will eliminate some of the stereotyping from our language. But it looks to me that it may not please some in Morocco. The “some” who are trying to give Morocco new identity and want to make morocco something that it really isn’t. the morocco where one group believe to be more Moroccan than others or more deserving than others.
This is a great news thanks krim

Dear Almot
I am pasting an additional piece on Mazighan (El Jadida). Even at the heart of Beni Hillal in doukkala
There is a Village called (Douar achlouh). I have been in this place but no one speaks pur amazigh but moroccan which is the emeging mixing with arabic.
Take care



liberation (Casablanca)

By Par Chahid Ahmed

El jadida serait-elle en face d'un véritable chamboulement, pouvant remettre en question les origines de l'histoire ancienne? En tout cas, c'est ce que semble confirmer aujourd'hui, la récente découverte réalisée par le Centre maroco-lusitanien d'El Jadida, dans le cadre de ses prospections archéologiques dans la région.

A peu de kilomètres, au nord d'El Jadida, le Centre vient de déterminer avec exactitude, l'emplacement du site du vieux Mazagan, appelé autrefois Mazighan, dont le nom serait d'origine berbère et qui remonterait selon plusieurs indices, aux temps reculés du Moyen-Age.

Le site en question, qui s'étend sur une large superficie, transformée en champs de culture, contient trois cimetières anciens, et une quantité abondante de céramiques et de matériaux archéologiques, qui prouvent bien que le site mis à jour remonterait au Moyen-âge.

D'autres repères, dont des écrits anciens, des archives contenues dans les «Sources inédites de l'histoire du Maroc», des gravures datant du XVIème siècle, ont permis aux prospecteurs du Centre de déterminer avec certitude, l'emplacement du vrai et ancien Mazighan, qui existait bien avant l'installation des Portugais sur cette partie de la côte marocaine.

Pour rapprocher nos lecteurs des développements de cette découverte de grande importance et qui ne manquerait pas de remettre en question nombre de données relatives à l'histoire ancienne d'El Jadida, nous avons rencontré Karra Azeddine, directeur du Centre maroco-lusitanien et principal artisan de cette opération archéologique.

allafrica.com

This is what it had been siad for several decades and now the molecular markers and genomics are clearly demonstrating that all Moroccans are imazighen. In fact it is a good news and should cement futher our identity that should be built on respect and reconciliation with our true history, identity, culture, and languages ( tamazight & Moroccan darija). We can continue to consider arabic as our own language. Arabic should be treated as any foreign language. Sure the Coran is in arabic but it does not mean to be a moslem you have to adopt arabic as mother-tongue.

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Murakuch
This is what it had been siad for several decades and now the molecular markers and genomics are clearly demonstrating that all Moroccans are imazighen. In fact it is a good news and should cement futher our identity that should be built on respect and reconciliation with our true history, identity, culture, and languages ( tamazight & Moroccan darija). We can continue to consider arabic as our own language. Arabic should be treated as any foreign language. Sure the Coran is in arabic but it does not mean to be a moslem you have to adopt arabic as mother-tongue.

English should be treated as any foreign language in the US and americans should adopt indians native languages. How about that??????

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Krim

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Murakuch
This is what it had been siad for several decades and now the molecular markers and genomics are clearly demonstrating that all Moroccans are imazighen. In fact it is a good news and should cement futher our identity that should be built on respect and reconciliation with our true history, identity, culture, and languages ( tamazight & Moroccan darija). We can continue to consider arabic as our own language. Arabic should be treated as any foreign language. Sure the Coran is in arabic but it does not mean to be a moslem you have to adopt arabic as mother-tongue.

English should be treated as any foreign language in the US and americans should adopt indians native languages. How about that??????

Sorry, the marocanns are the majority in Morocco. We did not get replaced by arabs. In the case of USA, the Europeans are the majority. Thus your example with native Indians is not relevant in this case.

Do not underestimate the strength of history.Do not try to start from zero, it is just a waste of time and time is running...
We had already a discussion on this issue in the french forum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2006 04:31 by Krim.

Do not underestimate the strength of history.Do not try to start from zero, it is just a waste of time and time is running...
We had already a discussion on this issue in the french forum.

Murakuch said :


<<This is what it had been siad for several decades and now the molecular markers and genomics are clearly demonstrating that all Moroccans are imazighen. In fact it is a good news and should cement futher our identity that should be built on respect and reconciliation with our true history, identity, culture, and languages ( tamazight & Moroccan darija). We can continue to consider arabic as our own language. Arabic should be treated as any foreign language. Sure the Coran is in arabic but it does not mean to be a moslem you have to adopt arabic as mother-tongue.>>


Imazighen were the first settlers, but there have been waves of immigration since, so it doesn't make sense to claim some sort of racial dominance. In my view, it's harmful to your cause, in fact it is as harmful for Morocco than the panarabic revisionist movement. Morocco, by its geographic location has always been crossed by people, cultures. Some of my friends in school were named "éric" and "serge", they were jewish and spoke darija better than I did, I remember their fathers spoke tachelhit when I didn't, you see that's Morocco, a mixture of lot of things. True, there is cause for concern with laws like the dahir of 1996 or 1997 (I'm not sure), which prevented imazighen to given imazighen names to their children, but that's an extreme and should be answered by lining up the diversity of our country, not answering with another extreme. And this is an amazigh talking to you.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2006 09:59 by chelhman.

i am a doukalli from the father and chelh fro mother

these news astonished me


i tough they were from saudi arabia originally and i read abt it

I want to know something. What do you guys always feel the urge to polemicise. I mean Krim, the knowledge provided is good and I thank you for it but the ensuing discussion is just non-sensical. Good, Europeans proved our ancestors are not Arabs but Berbers. Should we teach them that they are not French but Gauls, not English but Brittons.

I am not against Berber, not would I like to have it exterminated - all languages should be valued- but Arabic is not a foreign language to Morocco. I am Moroccan and Arab. My forefathers may have been , for some, Berbers, but believe you me, they were not coerced into adopting Arabic. It came naturally as they were seduced.

Have a more open mind, read your facts, do not improvise yourselves historians, and be more critical. This discourse held by some is so irritating ad nauseam. In the end, we are all Moroccans and all belong to Morocco; there is no need to segregate.

N.B. For those who are gullible, the report you brought is not exhaustive as it seems. Morocco is not just composed of Berbers. Our country is much more kaleidoscopic that it seems.

You have Phoenicians, Romans, Greeks, Jews, Vandals, Gambians, Guineans, Senegalese, Touaregs, Arabs who at point or another left their imprint in Morocco.

In some places, the genetic patrimony is different:

Many people in the North, especially in Tetouan and its vicinity have ancestry linked to Spain and Portugal
Many people from Sale have patrimony linked to Europeans countries dues to its status as a Buccaneer's republic at one point in history

Yada, yada, yada...

I think some of you can only digest so much. I will keep it to this.

hello
te man who speak that the doukkalis people are bbbbberbers must be an berber
because doukkalis peoples doesn' want any origine from amazarian
doukkalis are very proud because they are from arabic peoples from the arabian golf (EMIRAT, saoudia ....)

the document is not available anymore, any official sources?

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usualsuspect
hello
te man who speak that the doukkalis people are bbbbberbers must be an berber
because doukkalis peoples doesn' want any origine from amazarian
doukkalis are very proud because they are from arabic peoples from the arabian golf (EMIRAT,
saoudia ....)

if you are so proud of being one of theses peoples why don't you go there.c'an't accept the truth that most moroccans are berberrs and the the berber language is the most langauage spoken in morocco?

What's hard to accept is that you are imposing the fact. Stop being emotional and read more about the topic(or is academic reading too tough fo you?). Thank God Morocco is a beautiful mosaic and keep it that way. I would not want Morocco to be one monolithic group.

One question: why are you guys suffering from a complex? I mean, if I were a berber I would not be that much on the defensive and try to prove, with disputable findings, to other people that they are berber like me. Besides, why do you link genetics to culture and language? For all that I know there is no strong correlation.

Should we tell Indians and Pakistanis that there language is not Hindustani because there ancestors were Dravidians?
Should we ask Egyptians to revert back to Coptic because Arabic was imposed by desert horsemen?

I do not speak a word of amazigh, I grew up speaking darija, and some of my ancestry is supposed to be chorfa therefore from sa3oudiya. therfore i am supposed to be arab at least by culture and language as someone stated. walakine, i do not even think that our culture and language have any close resemblence to that of countries from the middle east.

wa nari, wa wellina 3rab men sa3oudiya ou matanhadrouch tal 3arbiya. tssatya hadi???

This is darija, the moroccan language. if it is arabic, tell me how many arabic words are used in the previous sentence?

I am not a big conspiracy theory fan. But i know that our identity as moroccans was trying to be shaped by bunch of misguided bullcrap. like amazigh people are arabs.

All what i can say is that the amazigh culture deserve more recognition in our country.

9 are, and only 2 words are not Arabic



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2006 08:45 by almotanabi.

Dear Akayama
After pasting the link I was expecting this kind of discussion. I think the spanish team draw anyway some questionable conclusions. Is there any specific berber genes with a berber fingerprint ? No nononono.
Their conclusion is that there is no difference between those living in Agadir area and those in El Jadida area. So the mixing between arabes and berebers and others has been taking place for centuries in all these regions. The product is what we call today the moroccan............point.

almotanabi,

I do not even know the answer to the question I asked?

but i am curious to know which words you think are not of arabic origin?

As for my point of view on this topic, I tend to agree with Krim. I do support the idea that there is only one moroccan product. wa salam

Now, there is an identity crisis. if there is one product? is it arabic, is it amazigh? or is it a mix?

Krim,

I will agree with you on that point, the findings may be questionable. My only objection is directed towards those who crave friction and controversy. My objection was not directed at you. I did mention your post was commendable; I mean it is knowledge and subject to a good discussion. However, some always take the slightest opportunity to cause controversy where there should not be.

Our country is a great one - although we do not appreciate much of the time - and is a very fertile one. Look at the diversity, the result of millenia of mixing. Any frictions is pointless, we are all Moroccans in the end.

Salam All,

It’s sickening to see what some are trying to do with the history of morocco, they like to see it in the image of today Iraq, divided between Amazigh, Arab and I don’t know what the heck else. Morocco is what it is because it was always different, it’s greatness is derived from it’s homogeneity, even at the time when the west was executing some groups, these groups lived in Morocco in peace with all their rights protected. I’m not an Amazigh, I don’t even think I’m an Arab nor do I give a Eddebbana about that, but I’m sick and tired of this new phenomenon that preaches division between Moroccans, what’s next? Shia, Sunni and Kurds?
We are a small number on this forum, yes, but we can may be become the first seed and the voice against this division in our large family, that is Morocco. For that reason, I was very happy to read Science proves that Doukkalis are in fact Berbers, but sadly, as you will see, there will be some Berbers who are going to feel insulted by this research, and you will, no doubt see some Doukkalli feel insulted as well. And instead of celebrating our coming together, and belonging to the same family, we’re just going to create more tension and more resentment. I wish there’s a pill called, Grow up pill.

Ramis16 wrote: almotanabi,
I do not even know the answer to the question I asked?
but i am curious to know which words you think are not of arabic origin?
In my humble view my friend, Matanhadrouch and tssatya, are the only words that are not Arabic or derive from Arabic, even though Ma in front of Matanhadrouch is an Arabic word standing by itself. The truth is there are Arabic scholars who can even find the relation or the roots of these 2 words in Arabic, one such a person is Dr Ahmed Lekhder Ghazal, I don’t know if any one read any of his work in this area.

Almot



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2006 11:31 by Almot.

Almot,

The reason I asked the question about the number of Arabic word is that I was surprised to know that there are amazigh words in darija. I did not know till recently that mssati is amazigh, i did not know that lalla like in princess lalla Meriem is also amazigh.

iwa ou men be3d, it also sickens me to know that there are moroccans who want morocco to be divided in different sectes. Yes, the quest of our identity might be sometimes hijacked by extremists.

But it does not mean that we cannot have a debate to know who we are. I grew up being told that I am arab. I only know that I am quite different from the people in the middle east once i came to the united states. Moreover, I grew up knowing little about our history and I still know very little. But what troubles me, is the fact that when it is claimed that morocco is an arab country, it is as if we did not have any history before the arabs came. the fact that the amazighite of morocco is not being recognized is demeaning and disrespectful to our people and our history. Many things don’t make sense to me, and I am sure don’t make sense to a lot of my compatriots. Maybe if we can answer some these question, we will stop living in the schizophrenia we live in right now. I just want to know who I am and make sure that my culture is getting the merit it deserves. Or maybe I am the only one that is confused. I am sure i am not or else there wont be a national debate over this question.


Now here is a definition of people living in north africa according
lexicorient.com/e.o/berbers.htm

Berbers
People living in North Africa, from Morocco's west coast to the oasis Siwa in Egypt, from Tunisia's north tip to the oases in mid-Sahara.
Berbers comprise a clear majority of the population of North Africa in terms of race, but in terms of identity, a considerable minority. It is essential to understand this difference between race and identity in order to grasp the meaning of being Berber. The influx of Arabs in North Africa has been far too insignificant throughout history to justify those large numbers of people now claiming to be Arabs. And the influx of other peoples in North Africa has not been of any significance since the Vandals in the 5th century.

Does anyone disagree with any of statement in the definition above?
does anyone know how did we get that arab identity?

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Krim
Dear Akayama
After pasting the link I was expecting this kind of discussion. I think the spanish team draw anyway some questionable conclusions. Is there any specific berber genes with a berber fingerprint ? No nononono.
Their conclusion is that there is no difference between those living in Agadir area and those in El Jadida area. So the mixing between arabes and berebers and others has been taking place for centuries in all these regions. The product is what we call today the moroccan............point.

Dear Krim,
I disagree with your hasty conclusions concerning the genetic relationship with the Iberian and Imazighen, please read the newly published book on prehistoric Iberia. More than the genes relationship, but also the languages relationship between the old languages of Iberia and other Medfiterranean languages :

Prehistoric Iberia - Genetics, Anthropology, and Linguistics (Hardcover)
by Jorge Martínez-Laso, Eduardo Gómez-Casado, Antonio Arnaiz-Villena (Editor)


Book Description
This book contains most of the conclusion reached by the geneticists, anthropologists, and linguists at the meeting `Prehistoric Iberia'. This is the first time that a particular historical topic has been approached from a multidisciplinary point of view in a single meeting. The novel conclusions reached include the following: There is no evidence of the demic diffusion model of people substitution in Iberia during the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. New technologies were probably reached by circum-Mediterranean navigation. Present day Iberians are genetically very similar to North African populations and also to other more distant Eastern Mediterraneans, including Turks. Arab invasions in North Africa and Spain in 711 AD did not result in a massive gene flow. North African Berbers and Spaniards have maintained their old genetic identity; this invasion was mostly religious and cultural. Celts in Iberia are difficult to find. Basque and Berber languages are similar to many other extinct `Usko-Mediterranean' languages (Etruscan, Minoan). These `older languages' were later substituted by the Euro Asiatic languages (Latin, Greek, German). Finally, the Saharan area is considered as a radiation focus of peoples, (and languages) who were forced to emigrate from a fertile area where hyper-arid conditions began to develop after 7000 BC.

Maroccanly or western-mediterraneanly yours

What is your point ?

There is no mixing, no melting pot in Morocco.... just amazigh that speak darija (a language that got arabized)... Moroccans are similar to thier neighbours and are not parachuted from Hijaz or Yemen...

What a logical statement you are given here.
Even in what you pasted you can read
"Arab invasions in North Africa and Spain in 711 AD did not result in a massive gene flow"
It is not 100 % as you are overstating in thid forum.

Did you see the clustering analysis made among the diffrenet Med populations or you are just talking from gut feelings !!!

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Murakuch
There is no mixing, no melting pot in Morocco.... just amazigh that speak darija (a language that got arabized)... Moroccans are similar to thier neighbours and are not parachuted from Hijaz or Yemen...

You are really in denial.