It is very true that the language used in this forum makes it very hard to participate. When no filthy words are used then Allah is used as a stick to makes anyone who disagrees shut his mouth in fear of being called a "kafir". A virtual forum for the Moroccan diaspora such as this one is supposed to help Moroccans communicate and exchange different views and opinions on a wide variety of topics that are of interest to them. Right now I feel I am in a discussion taking place in a dictatorship where where vulgarity and religion are equally used to score points and be the winner of the debate. It just feels like a bad neighborhood.

Such a shame...

Shireen? maybe...

but it's not an area to find support for capitalism... homosexuality, democracy... laicity... and such...
we are Muslims after all...

and Morroco is in a time when people are disapointed in the "modern system" and they want to go back to the old values...

i'm sick and tired to see that everytime we speak about human rights... the people in jail are the first to benefit from it.
i'm sick and tired to when we speak about freedom, the worthless scum who do nothing good the whole day are the first to benefit from it.
i'm sick and tired to when we speak about tolerance, gay people are the first to benefit from it...

tired, tired, tired... violence and vulgarity are the lesser evil i can show...

i want a system that gives full power to the most respected people in the country.
and i speak about the good Muslims.
the Muslims who do the gran Jihad (discipline, respect, hard work) to reach Al I7ssane (excellence and perfection)...
these people who are clean, hard working, honest, intelligent... the people who dont fall from lust, drugs, egoism...
these men and women who give everything they have to take care of their people... to do their work in the most complete way possible...
the people who love their country, and clean in front of their houses...
the people who dont try to rule the world...
the people who wont give a piece of their freedom or goods to any foreigner without their will...

i wont the revival of our great Muslim civilization. we followed foreigners for years... all they did is rape us, take our wealth and treasures... and protect those who kill our brothers...

i dont give a damn about the homosexuals, they are the least of my worries...

Mask?

Who are you to judge the good from the bad Muslims? Show respect so people can respect you! Lead by example! Unless all you need is ALFITNAH; since you advocate Violence and vulgarity! vulgaraity has its purpose and everybody is prone to rave once in a while, but make no mistake, you're in no position to judge because your subjective, neither am I by the way.
This corner used to be so clean ( to use one of your words, and now it's infected with unsbstantiated arguments!

Homesexuals or inmates are each a group that has as much right to live and be respected as you do. They are not geting more rights than you have...they are going about their life their way and they are earning their respect as and paying their dues as human beings...I won't disrespect you and get too personal and ask about your sexual orientation, because it's none of my business...but you're pushing the argument so cheaply that you're losing your ground as to what exactly that is you want from these people. They are gainig rights you're not geting? Are you feeling annoyed? disappointed by the fact that they are geting approval or is your haterd misirected at them and just looking for A target?

You talk more about the GOOD MUSLIM!!! Who am I to judge your religious belief and how high in the Spiritual ladder you are? Show me how you can argue for or against in a rational way; because tired, everybody is!
YOu talk about Muslim values and your preaching them through foul language and violence?
You talk about great Muslim civilisation and you're contributing to its downfall rather than its rising ?
You debase serious debates in talking about yourself as a tired person and you offer no alternative? I don't see any compassion in your arguments, for a Devout MUslim that you try to show!
You're not alone thinking that Gays are deviants but you might want to take it easy on yourself and channel that anger and hatered in other smarter ways if you want to get your point across. I'm not going to speculate how you deal with people in the real world, but I certainly don't think your this vocal in your neighborhood!
I like these words of yours!!!"the Muslims who do the gran Jihad (discipline, respect, hard work) to reach Al I7ssane (excellence and perfection)...but I don't see you practicing/following what you preach, which leads me not take you seriously!!! Religion is a personal matter and it's a way of life and I leave it at that. The GRAND JIHAD to me is domesticating the self before the other! and I am not interested in persuading the other when it comes to religion! I will respect you as a human being! no regardless of you Religion, ethnicity,natinality....or sexual orientation.

You take it easy!

Be more human and you will gain peace of mind!

i agree with Mr LeMask in all what he said, as for you Mr Yani : you said things that have their place in truth, but let me tell you something dude, being human and humane doesn't mean giving up some values, being tolerant doesn't mean just keep on watching bad Moufsideen that don't belong to our values and religious beliefs infiltrate our society and say who cares ! a good muslim is the one who don't tolerate such things, homosexuality is strictly an awful sin that it shouldn't spread or let those who want to live their "lives" do it without being punished , if you read Quran you'll find out that People of Sodom were punished severly because of this dirty sin, and in all country where such behaviors are common, they'd expect a wrath, so please don't try to mix things up, if laics don't give a damn, you, as a muslim, shouldn't, you live in their country they can do whatever they please but once you're back to your own country (Morocco) it's something else when it comes to this issue...

Mr Shelby,
I like your reasoning better; hence my response:
You talk and seem to dismiss Tolerance/ Toleration and historically it's been a failure! Most of those who were prosecuted for whatever, after moving/immigrating elsewhere , they proved to be intolerant themselves. Now that might be a selfdefense mechanism that stems from deracination and insecurity in all its facets... but it's no excuse, and he answer very simply is it's human nature! The problem these days, however, IS the Intolerance from within and within people!

I apreciate you're observation that I am mixing things up! Correction, I am not! you are. Religion is personal. Daily matters are not. You prefer to be the Imam, Kadi and the policeman, I see that as mixing things up. Now, I wouldn't have a problem with you being all of that: mixing up ( Judge/ AAdel and the Jury) if you can guarrantee Fairness in ruling! I doubt that, though!

You talk about Laics not giving a damn! (your words), and I honestly don't know why you mention that! Laicite' is pretty much a "NEW" policy( 1905) if you compare it to the Islamic period...and that's the french dealing with their afairs the way they see fit. We can open another thread and debate Laicite if you want, but here, I think that would fall under mixing up topics. Lastly in this regard, hoosexuality is as ancient as human beings! laicite, at least the term and the clear distinction, is not!


we just happen to be talking about Gays and homosexuality in Saudi Arabia ( an example of a muslim country). Now, this is an issue in Europe as well as in the States... in these continents as well as in the arab/ muslim countries there are people who are as vehemently against gays as you are in your beloved country! So, don't tell me that " it's something else" in morocco! I have a pretty god idea from your interventions as well as those of Mr Masik! The point here is being gay is not particular to a country or a race or religion... the conservatives in the states almost use the same words you use to talk about Gays, feminists, masculinists, muslims, budists...pretty much every group that's not conservative christian; and that includes the moderate ones as well...but here's the difference, they talk to rally their troops because they see themselves as vulnerable and a good number of them are guilty of the "crime" they are pushing to trial, c.a.d there are Gays who are in the closet and they are fuming rage daily against gays, the guilty dog often barks ( I'm sure you heard of the story of the wealthy Preacher who happened to like massages with a male partner! this is a GUY of Faith who had a big mouth all his life as a leader in chrch...and was caught red handed, la main dans le sac,...what's my drift here?

I look at the big picture: Gays to me are a group that I might not like, agree with...but at the end of the day, they are a minority that is pushed and YES, once upon the time were STONNED! But it's a different time, now spitting at some one's feet is a misdemeaner and if repeated it might rise to a more serious charge! that's the Law, even in the beloved morocco! YOU MIGHT FALL UNDER A CERTAIN MINORITY, RACIALLY,ETHNICALLY, INTELLECTUALLY, POLITICALLY...WHO IS GOING TO PROTECT YOU, IF NOT THE LAW THAT'S ABOVE ALL? I am not talking about Shariaa Law, because even in Morocco, it's not the ultimate law! otherwise why do you have the revised Modawana and the constitution that might need more review by the way! find me something about stonning there! even in Saudi Arabia, bahrayn, Yemen...homosexuality is there and mind you those are arab and in most cases muslim...are they stonning them in those countries? it's barbarism at its best if there are isolated cases!
Conclusion:

Nobody owns values! and nobody has the sole responsibility to protect them. I came to reaslise that a while ago now, but I came to my senses and learned a bit. My faith is intact and very persnoal. I can get very Spiritual to a fault, but I never let it trespass others' business. You can be a Jew or budhist...If I am going to respect you, it's not because you're straight,Gay, religious, Moroccan... I'll pay the respect owed as a Human Being and as you put it being HUMANE; That is a universal value!

your thoughts

Yani

Quote

I apreciate you're observation that I am mixing things up! Correction, I am not! you are. Religion is personal. Daily matters are not. You prefer to be the Imam, Kadi and the policeman, I see that as mixing things up. Now, I wouldn't have a problem with you being all of that: mixing up ( Judge/ AAdel and the Jury) if you can guarrantee Fairness in ruling! I doubt that, though!

oh dear Yani, i confirm, you are the confused one... what is with this tolerance and laicity bullshit? you bought this crap? ...

let me tell you, those who invented this stuff arent Muslims... laicity is a doctrine made by the Christians to defend themselves from church's corruption... we have no church... so just erase any link between Islam and laicity. laicity is good for catholics... for Muslims it's bullshit...

maybe you lived in a foreign country, and that you lost your values, and lived in their "fithna"... you forgot an important thing. you ARE NOT a Christian, you are Muslim. you are different... you arent neutral, nor peaceful, not what they call "tolerant"...

tolerance is a shield... today, when you speak about injustice or any religious ideal... you are an intolerant scum... and when you speak about gay rights, women equality... you are a tolerant nice guy, fashion and sweet, who will have more chances hitting a nice chick... or a gay dude...

dude? you arent selling cars... they dont have to like you. you have to be independant, and to do what you have to do. you arent neutral, you are in the side of god.

if god said "homosexuality is bad"... then you will think so...
if god said "stone homosexuals" you will stone them...
if god said "jump from a cliff"... you should do so... but you have the right to hesitate or dissobey... god is merciful.

so the only rightful question is "what god says"... "i dont know" is an acceptable answer...

Shelby thinks that they should be stoned. i dont follow him, because i think that stoning crazy people isnt very Muslim...
but when you say that we should tolerate their behavior in name of freedom... i think that you are more deserving some stoning... come on man! it's crazy... we have to tolerate the people we should be fighting? it's nuts...

as a Muslim, you have to fight evil in all it's forms... with the sword, with the pen, with education with hard work...
when you see poverty... you do your Jihad, you work HARD... to earn money and fix it...
when you see a criminal, you put your life in the line... your destroy the source of this evil...
when you see a crazy dude, you take a pen, you write and talk to him... you teach him, educate him... fix him... or at least try to protect society from him...

you cant just walk away and say "tolerance... i'm not a coward, i'm a tolerant dude..." (let's laugh a bit) "you rob a bank? oh good, if it floats your boat... it's in your nature... do your best... please, dont rape the director... it's in your nature too? oh... nevermind then, carry on...my wallet too? umm"

you accept a man sleeping with a man... what is next? a dude marrying his daughter? a man and a dog? a man and a baby?

religion is the only shield... setting the good behavior... once you take it off... where is the next shield? where is the next limit? believe me, mankind is capable of much worse than intolerant Muslims...

some groups in a northern country asked for the legalisation of pedophilia...
Danemark i think... pedophiles making political pressures to change laws?
at least... i will never see that in Iran or Afghanistan... some good in intolerance not?

Mr yani, it really feels good reading your post. I was starting to get worried to see that most ppl in this forum are homophobic in such a discusting manner. It looks like members of this forum are really fanatic about their religion and race. And obviously with such ppl it's so hard to have a valuable discussion.
I am muslim berber and proud of my religion but I find stoning someone in 2007 is a savage act and also think that prefering secracy over responibility is an act of cowerdness and hypocrasy. My Islam is so far tolerant, exclusive and merciful. Hatered, killing, behading, stoning etc these are the things that damage our religion in the world of today and has nothing to do with neither the Quran nor the Teaching of sidna Mohamed.The world unfrotunatly looks and listens only to fanatic ignorant muslims like you Mr Shelby and Lemask...So, please have mercy on us and think twice before advocating such horrible thoughts. May God show you the way of peace and may the soul of sidna Mohamed, a soul that brought the light into darkness, finally reach your hearts..amin!

@ virtual-person,

Do not worry.I don't think most people here are homophobic, I just think they stay away from the discussion when they see that the kind of language used and the way some people here think they detain absolute truth. I'm sure you understand what I mean.

virtual_person? i dont want to see in this situation... but i wish to see how understanding you would be me if you child turned gay...

tell you kids to be good Muslims, and that gay people will never be good Muslims... and you will be fine.

but you dont have the right to ask us to love/respect or just share anything with gay people...

respect our rights, and you will be fine. i dont believe in stoning neither... but i wish i had the right to defend myself if some freaks invaded the public domain in my country... let them stay in the dark corners of society...

What's the matter with both of you gUys (Virtual and Yani)? you think stoning is a primitive and cruel punishement? so Islam is cruel? i mean when he ordered us to behead those who deserve it as a Divine justice or cut their hands off when they are caught red-handed stealing, stone those who cheat on their wives/husbands? you say that's cruel? what's the level of cruelty for you? those who are sentenced to death in the US (a "democratic country" are fried in their chairs, suffocated by gases or some slow poisnous needles ? what's the difference ? Yanks start their day by bombing a hole in the wall muslim country just for the sake of killing, and spilling muslims' blood why it's not considered as cruel ! everyday they start their breakfast by killing a bunch of muslims in Iraq and Afganistan as well as some jew hogs do in Palestine and nobody in any "modern/ humane country" says a word ! they judge us as a blood-thirsty race while some nice dads commit incest by the name of freedom ! the hell with their freedom, i prefer to live as a muslim with my own beliefs in a distant desert as a shepherd and never share the life of modernity, at least we all are sentenced to death no matter how long we will live, this modernity has cost us big, we got things upside down here, when i think about accepting a gay as a normal human being, that's wallahi the best thing i've ever heard ! congratulations and warn me when you accept a dog as a legal heir to your wealth !! so pathetic ! ...

Mr Shelby, Thanks to the modernity you are complaining about you was able to write your message here and interact with others all over the world. Thanks to the Americans you have a cell phone, a TV, a car a dish and the list can go further and further....I guess being a salafist like you do sound , you would prefer to go and live in a tent on a mountain in Afghanistan, you will be part of Taliban, you will execute women in soccer feilds front of a manipulated audiance, you will forbid watching TV and music, you will consider all non-muslims to be viable to kill and disrespect, you will demolish monuments from old civilisation simply because they worshipped differently, you will also practise your favourite hobey of stoning gays and others etc etc... so go there and get back to us with how you are changing the world. Tell us that by doing so you managed to kick the Americans out of Irak and you ensured a country for the Palestinians....
Wake up and educate yourselves. One life-time is too short to spend in hatered and racist behaviour!!

Mask/shelby

It is indeed pathetic that instead of rising to the challenge of this time, you're getting personal and going back to the cave-life way of thinking! You're narrowmindedness will leave you where you are physically and intelectually. Your twisted way of thinking is what's promoting hatered on the conservative side in the West. You're exactly the Kind of muslim they want to hear to use as an excuse to bomb the Iraquis...! why do you have to point the finger at the French/Americans... while you're not givig them anything to respect you for? Look that up in what " GOD SAID". You must be really desperate to talk about cutting hands and pocking eyes...we should then cut your tongue while we're at it; I will not recommend that even if it's said in the Quran! i believe in "recycling"!

Leave the Quran aside, but if you decide to quote it, then do it justice and let me know if you can keep up! I'm sure you can't;your post are proof of that!

DUDE MASk? I never told you I was Muslim, and it's none of your business what religion I am...but If I were to embrace a religion, I'm sad to say, it won't be the kind you're painting here. I am not going to give you any kind of lesson because you're avoiding any serious intellectual discussion and resorting to childish and unfounded arguments. Anybody can Curse and bark, not anybody can rationalise! No worries there, wish I had more time and I can be pissed off too, but really I am laughing out loud reading your bank joke))

Give us something else other than "Fuck and dum and scum and Koffar..." what's the alternative to this problemm in your world? certainly not killing! I gave you the answer to that,It's Rbiyla or Bershid's kind of place!

I'm still honoring the discussion and trying to get you to make sense and debate but you keep throwing stones on the way and that proves your inability to Think, argue...I'll even talk religion with you if you abide by the rules of the Forum, which you already broke! Surprise me, not by filthy language because sadly it's become your MO, a broken record...give us something of substance; enough with the nonsense!
Allez y to your key board, my session at this cyber is up!

Hey dudes Virtual and Yani : first i've never said i'm a salafist or something, what i meant by going to a distant desert and live shepherding is an option i'd switch to once i realize how big i'm losing when i think about treating gays as normal persons for instance, ...talking about caves and cave-man and all the shebang's just a bull***t you came out with, sure i'm a muslim but this issue (homosexuality and modernity the way you see it ) is very sensitive, why? because i'm not the kind of persons who are ready to tolerate his little daughter for example going out with her boyfriend or come home with her boyfriend and say : you two are made for each other and leave'em alone ! no soap !! if this's a part of modernity as you see it, well i'd be glad to tell you i prefer living like any taliban (though i don't agree with all their behaviors), i said I PREFER, i guess both of you guys wouldn't mind to let your daughter, if you have one, do whatever she pleases as long as it's a part of modernity? wearing tight jeans or swimsuits ... stuff like that and you don't "wink", if so, i guess i'm talking to two "dayyouthyyin" who think modernity and accepting the other even your wives' beaus or let you wives wear whatever they like even if they show the nice parts of their bodies and you smile at any gawker you meet while he's staring at your wife's attractive spots & you think it is the price to pay to look modern and moderate and be a member of the 21 st century, for the last time i'll say it : a gay is a gay and his place's an isolated cell or a big house not the streets !! diversity in anything else but not this one ! being straight is normal being gay's unormal . what would yoiu do if one of your kids turns out to be gay ? as for me folks i rather be buried alive !

Yani? i'm interested in your modern ways to fight homosexuality...

go ahead man, i'm all ears... give us a good solution. excuse us! we are maybe stupid next to your highness. so all we have is cave like solutions... can you give us star-trek like solutions? because we are kinda helpless here...

how to fight homosexuality my lord?

Hey LeMask i've got an answer :IF YOU CAN'T FIGHT'EM JOIN'EM ! LOL , i mean that's how Yani and Virtual person would answer to your question !!!

oh shelby... you can guess? do you see the futur? i need the lottey numbers dude...

no honestly... you have no solutions to the problems...
anyway, you dont have the right to ask us to turn gay, or to love them... or just to respect them...

we still have the right to choose who is going to hang out next to our kids... sorry guys! you lose!

As Yani has rightly pointed out, we were hoping that you will come out with some thorough, valid and sound arguments to support your nasty position vis-a-vis human liberty in choice. Unfortunatly, all you came out with is childish loose and irrelevant material which is actually a complete waste of time to read.
I took the trouble to write again hoping this time around you would respect some basic principles of intellectual discussions.
About a thousand year ago Ibnou Roshd along with some great thinkers of that time were debating the issue of Al3akl and Nakel. They were all debating this question: Do we have to take literal meaning of texts or do we have to interpret them to reconcile the divine message with peopl's realities in terms of space and time. It is a matter of fact that the Muslim civilisation reached its peak when it was able to accomodate all various trends of thought and Ijtihad like these. I recommend strongly that you both go and read some books. To read is the first step for you both to take because your lack of education is so obvious.
I have a colleague and friend of mine who is gay. he is actually one of my best freinds. He is Canadian and does not beleive in religions. Since 10 years ago he is sponsoring a child in Gaza. He is taking care of all his expenses from A to z with a monthly cheque that he sends almost ten years now. My gay freind hates Bush and Harper and participates in demonstrations calling to brings troops back home. My gay freind thinks that casablanca is the best city in the world and has furnished his living room in a Moroccan style. Now, according to you both this person should be stoned or even burned untill death..Well, for your info I find this person so great, human and I respect him very much. Why do I have to bother with how he lives his sexual life. Sorry, that is none of my business and am not very nosy like both of you and question every single aspect of his life.
To summerise on my opinion about all of this, I can say that I am blesses with something called COMMON SENSE which you do not seel to have the very least of it. Of course if you are going to carry on with the language of: your daughter and your wife...anb all that silly garbage, then this will be my last post in this forum...

virtual_person, there is a room for interpretation of course... there is a lot of room for changes and evolution.
but not on some things.
the definition of good and evil is independant from time.

Islam wont accept homosexuality even in 100.000years...
the human nature didnt change. the family model is still working. we understood the principle of Ijtihad in a time. but we did too much... we went too fast. and then, we gave up on everything...

and i dont say that your gay friend is an evil man who should be burned alive... not my kind. but he have a bad influence on society. it's NOT natural to see a man with another man. is it so hard to understand?
and being nice or a good worker doesnt excuse this part of his personnality.

this dude will never have kids... and he isnt Muslim for god sake. it's nothing for you?
he had a different childhood... and it wasnt the correct one following our principles...

we are working to give every child a father and a mother. and a Muslim education.

and i dont care that much about what you think of Ibn Rushd. but he wasnt talking about this point when he said that. the position on homosexuality is very clear... it's wrong. do you see a gay Muslim community? come on dude!

we are people who believe in god, a god who created us following a model... a natural model. the only solution is to see a man mate with a woman. not with a dog, not with a horse or a dolphin... but a WOMAN!

we cant move to anything else if you dont understand this basic things...

i say that your friend have to be ashamed. and that he have to hide his sexual life. to not make people think that it's normal... or good...

society needs heterosexual people only. this is the intelligent, natural and DOMINANT model. nothing else should make you think even for a second that there is something else...
our survival depends on it. and if someday, these homosexuals appear to be a threat to this natural order, they will be fairly treated as an expandable part of society...

i'm sorry, it's natural justice.

Shelaby and Masik (I don't know which one is which but no matter) you made me laugh once again;

Hahaha I am really laughing out loud... hope you're proud of yourself? calling me names and everybody in this corner? Well because you're the good "shepherds", I am trying to learn from you about Al Aadl wa AL Ihssan, but it seems there's nothing you have to offer but empty threats. Now to your questions, which I have answered so many a time, but one more time, since you seem to enjoy the discussion! It's sort of My version of Jihad!
I will use numbers and bullets to simplify the process:

1- You (both) talk about: How to FIGHT them?

Why is everything with you two about Fighting?
Why so much anger? I won't psychoanalyze you!

Answer: I don't have to fight this group, I don't have a problem with them, and they don't threaten me! You, on the other hand, seem to be on your edges talking about gays, you seem to have a big beef with them that's too homophobic. Look up the word before you rush to your cyber.

2-You get personal and talk about daughters and kids...If you're so sure and at peace with your faith, use that to teach your kids not to "hang out' with who you think are abnormal (Not unormal, that’s not a word, but let's not start on that)

3- You don't have to talk about solutions but talk about Options: You have options: For example:
a- Don't talk to them;
b- Stay away from them;
c- God created you, God created them;
d- Be angry at God, first, and then go back to options "a" and "b"

4- Masik; you say"
"anyway, you dont have the right to ask us to turn gay, or to love them... or just to respect them..." [sic]

Answer: who asked you in this forum? Certainly not me or virtual or anyone!!!...Are you sure you're having a discussion with us or with somebody else? Now don’t loose your temper and watch your blood pressure! The subconscious can act up during daylights at times.

5- The best thing you ever said is:
"we still have the right to choose who is going to hang out next to our kids... sorry guys! you lose!" [sic]

Response:

1- I agree with you fully! You have the right to choose with whom to hang out or with whom you want your kids to hang out! Nobody should take that away from you! Nobody! And nobody attempted to take that right from you Here! Let me know if there's someone here and I will back you up in this regard!

2- You also have the right to kill Gays, stone them...I would like to see you try. I choose not to (see above why, and since you can't, it's because I don't have a problem with them, I am secure and happy in that regard!
3- You ended with " sorry guys! you lose!" [sic]
Kudos to you both, You win and you make a good couple, too. I take my loss from you guys with pride, but at least I tried!

You cracked jokes about people who simply tried to debate you and present their point of view and you ridiculed the discussion!! Well you know what they say; he who lives by the joke, shall die by the joke.
I lose you win and "lakom dinokom wa liya din" sadaka alaho al aadim!
Cheers,
Yani

dear Yani... why it's about fighting? because we are attacked...

i dont want homosexuals in my family... so how to fight homosexuality out? you see the logic dude?

Quote

2-You get personal and talk about daughters and kids...If you're so sure and at peace with your faith, use that to teach your kids not to "hang out' with who you think are abnormal

very good point! wow man, i'm impressed.
but society isnt like that. i should lock my kids in their rooms maybe? because when you are out. you see a dumb dude saying "i'm so cool, i dont even hate gay people! LOL"... on the TV... same crap!
in the school, same crap... wherever you go... they are following you.
you know, i'm in France, and in my school (university) i know more gay dudes than heterosexuals... and i spare you the "in between" metrosexuals or others...
it's a REAL invasion... they arent evil and i dont hate them. but they are invading.

and who are my friends? the Nazis homophobic guys... they are all what is left. so i spend my time with the girls... i dont mind! but i want the right to say "i dont want my kids to be gay." without some sodomite looking at me with a look saying "oh my gawd, so intolerant..."

it's MY RIGHT! and i will do anything to see it granted. just dont push... it will only be worse! i'm the shepard... you have this one right!

Quote

a- Don't talk to them; b- Stay away from them;
c- God created you, God created them;
d- Be angry at God, first, and then go back to options "a" and "b"

now this is bullshit...
god never creat such things... they are the creation of a godless society...
where god reign, these guys hide their godless attitude... they dont EXIST...

and i want to be free man, i dont have to run from them... cant they do their stuff at home like i do... i dont scream my heterosexual life in the streets... i dont wear heterosexual symbols... i dont try to convert their kids (if they have any)...
why should they force me to accept them? call me homophobic...

i'm NOT! i have a different ideal... i dont hate them! i love someone different...

and i'm under attack man... i live in a democratic society...
and it's in evolution with society. someday, gays will be free you know? and we will maybe have a gay president...
and i will be forced to accept him... i'm sorry dude, with democracy, we lost independance...

we are independant no more...

Nice debate fellows...
For those who want to eradicate homosexuality, Jerry Falwell just died, maybe you should send your resumés, there's an opening.
If you don't know who he is, he's the dumbass who said, right after 9/11, that the attacks were God's punishment because of homosexuals in the US. A man with a towering intellect indeed...

I never understood why our extremists didn't get along with their extremists, they seem to agree on everything, except the way they spell God...

chelhman? what if he was right?

you know god personnaly maybe? ... i wouldnt say that it's impossible...

what if society was crazy... and that the symbol of this madness was the freedom the homosexuals are enjoying... and that this madness was injustice...
and that this injustice created these mad people who did the 9/11?

can you put your life on it? are you really that sure thait 9/11 had nothing to do with homosexuality?

Good to see Chelhman is back;
Yes, Jerry F-well is gone and he won't be missed in my world.
He made me laugh though everytime he was on the chattering box debating/ responding to questions. Bush is really sad that he's idol is gone! Sadly, there's plenty who are in line waiting to get to Liberty University, can you believe the man had his own Univ. and He helped elect Ronald Reagan ( they were good friends... and he helped elect Bush Jr...150 empolyees in the white house are graduates of the Law School of Liberty University that Jerry Owns! Their principles, well we've been talking about one of them here to no avail.

virtual person;

Man zakin? well said. I have to go back and re-read Inb Rushd myself. We can only do so much! I live by:

"Wa ma Outittom mina Al ailmi I'la qalila"
cheers,
Yani

Hi Yani,

If you want to sink yourself into Ibn Rushd, I'm reposting an interesting link :

[www.muslimphilosophy.com]

Hi LeMask,

How are you sweetie ?
Are you serious with your questions ? If it's the case, I'm not sure how to answer, you are waaaay out there. One thing I can grant you : at least you're entertaining
We have a saying back home : "ila ktèr a'louil, kaï da7ak"

Wow, thanks for finally joining Chelhman, I'm reading comments here that are "uncroyables mais vrais". Hard to believe that some people actually believe what they are saying. Do hope this is just a show and not for real.

as for my last word you all : gays are abnormal, they suck, they have no right to do whatever ! they're psychos, insane people who need therapy, they swim againt the instinct's current, unless they give up their behaviors they should be put in quarantine or killed if by hell they insist on practicing their sinful intercourses...because in one of the Hadiths homos sexual intercourses make Allah's Throne shake ..and this to show how sinful, how ugly, how bad their deed is ! can you imagine ? (i mean if you got an atom of faith) it's simply inacceptable !
have a good day/night !

hi chelhman , i'm fine dude...
i still have problems with hippies, they want to push Muslims to accept everything and anything... they call it "tolerance"... they spend 90% of their time defending homosexuals and criminals from justice...

my brain cant accept it... it's just crazy... Muslim homosexuals? wow, impossible, even in centuries... god! no way... i already have problems with Muslims who love fat chicks... but a dude with a dude? no way!!!

Interesting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2007 06:10 by jtp20039.

Hi Shireen,

Thanks for your warm welcome.

LeMask,

Nobody is pushing muslims to become homosexuals or to become anything for that matter.
There are muslim homosexuals, there have been for as long as islam exists, for a very simple reason : it's human nature. Religions put a blanket on it but it was always there. They exist, we exist, the question before you is : what's it to you ? Just let them be.
Some of them, in my view, are even better muslims than those who trumpet their religion on these idiotic Gulf satellite channels, because they are seeking to revive the quest for knowledge which was the base for islam's success in the beginning.
here's an example, and brace yourself : she's gay :

[www.muslim-refusenik.com]

chelhman, i dont believe this...
are you telling me that we read in the Coran about "Kawmo Lut" is bullshit?

sorry dude... i cant believe this... where is the room of a homosexual couple in the family model of Islam?
tell me something about the prophet and an homo "muslim"...

it's not logic... something isnt right in this story...