As communication is an essential part of society. Are our thoughts and way of thinking governed by the language we do use ?
Example from this site are French Moroccan Dialect Berber, Formal Arabic, English Dutch and so on.. but could a message be transmited more smoothly in a language more than another ?
To put the question in another way you will find they are different expressions in a language, which to a native speaker of the language would or could convey a emotion, but when you translate it to another language, it loses its emotional value its charm ..poetry for instance.So is thinking governed by the language you speak in..??
Keep thinking about emotion, and sense where this issue laps more visually than anywhere else.
"Hé ! bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau.
Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau !
Sans mentir, si votre ramage
Se rapporte à votre plumage,
Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois."
'...which to a native speaker of the language would or could convey a emotion, but when you translate it to another language, it loses its emotional value its charm ..poetry for instance"
C'est justement pour ca que les nouveauc courants de traduction privilégient une traduction non ethnocentrique, plus ouverte sur l'autre... Traduire l'émotion dans le langage n'est pas facile...
xara a écrit: ------------------------------------------------------- > Salam, > > '...which to a native speaker of the language > would or could convey a emotion, but when you > translate it to another language, it loses its > emotional value its charm ..poetry for instance" > > C'est justement pour ca que les nouveauc courants > de traduction privilégient une traduction non > ethnocentrique, plus ouverte sur l'autre... > Traduire l'émotion dans le langage n'est pas > facile...
peux tu nous etaler un peu plus cette nouvelle traduction "non ethnocentrique ?"
tu veux dire quoi par cela, un exemple p-e ?
"Hé ! bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau.
Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau !
Sans mentir, si votre ramage
Se rapporte à votre plumage,
Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois."
Salam, Exemple classique d'une traduction ethnocentrique (les Français excellent en la matière):
a cada dia su pena, a cada ano su dano Le traducteur ethnocentrique cherchera l'équivalent direct dans la langue d'arrivée, le fançais dans notre cas, résultat:
A chaque jour suffit sa peine...
Alors que la traduction non ethnocentrique sera:
a chaque jour suffit sa peine, à chaque année sa déveine...
Ce qui rendrait à la fois l'étrangeté du proverbe et son rythme.
Absolutely, languages are parts of cultures and therefore contain parts of people’s history, traditions, and emotions. People do not express feeling the same way all over the world, words that mean one thing here can mean totally different one there. And that’s where translation comes; only it can never convey people’s massages and feelings with accuracy, it is, however, a great way to get people thoughts closer. The big example where translation failed to deliver to the world, in my view, is with the Koran, where no matter how hard and innovative translators are, when you are able to read the Koran in Arabic and, lets say in French or English translations, you could see the huge difference in the meaning and the feeling that is all but disappear in translations, the holy Koran, then, becomes just another book. only an Arabic reader of the Koran shivers at every line he or she reads, it seems there’s no way that could be translated in any language.
What a great subject this one you started is l9bi7, Thank you,
hi almot, I am not familiar with translating written documents, but the spoken japanese language does actually lose a lot of its meaning if one tries to translate it in another language, some words in japanese just dont exist in other languages, or at least in the languages I know. I am still thinking about the question: is thinking governed by language I am not sure until which extent thinking is influenced by the language learned or spoken at the moment, but I would rather say that behavior is somewhat influenced by the language spoken. For example I would behave almost like japanese girls do when I am talking in japanese with japanese friends. I would behave like foreigners when I am with foreign friends talking in English, but I am still not sure how much that is linked to thinking, since I think that I am not really thinking, in a way that I am not aware of myself when I am talking to friends I feel comfortable with, but it is becoming a kind of automatic, when talking to people in their language, and knowing their culture, I just can`t help behaving just like one of them, and I really have no clue why, whether it is the language or the place I am in. I know that my opinions dont change according to the language I express them in, but behavior can`t help being influenced. How about you almot? and people who live in other places than europe? I think it is a bit different, am I wrong? the distance from one`s native country does have sth to do here doesn`t it?
La traduction du Coran n'est pas facile: elle relève plusieurs difficultés de sens , mais surtout de rythme...
J'ai eu à lire certaines traductions française du Coran, la meilleure à mon avis est celle de Berques qui a essayé de sauvegarder le magnifique Rythme du Coran... Mais en général, le Coran dans une autre langue comme a dit Almotanabi n'est qu'un autre livre...
That's correct ..nonetheless, there are two main issues in my question
is our primary thinking based on any of the languagues we aquired ? for instance when am I thinking about something, am I thinking in a language or in a rather standard pro format thinking mechanism and then translated into the language I would formulate or express the results of that tought.
second issue.. the meaning of words as u stated, the quran, in fact looses the holy sense when translated, but also our emotional states cannot be formulated whil transiting from a language to another. And that's where the point of cultural interference exists.. a nice decorated feeling expressed by a french words seems more acceptable for us and easily received by us, moroccans than said in slang arabic which is more appropriate to transmit hard and straigh forward directions.
"Hé ! bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau.
Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau !
Sans mentir, si votre ramage
Se rapporte à votre plumage,
Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois."
I knew yesterday it was time to quit when I started posting in the wrong areas, sorry for that, I believe that we all, when it comes to speaking languages of the countries we live in, we simply “manage” to acclimatize as best as we can, even when we think that we’ve mastered one language and became familiar with its people, we can never judge how our feelings are really showing to host populations, but in most cases, they can. Let me see if I can say this in another way, when we are in Morocco, the walls fall and all barriers disappear because our culture, words and backgrounds are the same, when an older person in Morocco looks in the eyes of a bad behaving child and says: Hchouma, in most cases you can see the effect of that word on the child who most likely will feel bad and try to change the behavior. “ I hope that is still the case today” One can assume that a French or Japanese older person could say same word to a bad behaving French or Japanese child in their language and receive same result. But imagine for a minute that you translate the word hchouma, Eid mobarak or ajarakoumo allah fi X, while talking to this kid, in my view you could never convey the message with the same accuracy that the respective older people could’ve done in their respective languages. Cultures inject their souls and spirits in people’s languages. If I loose a dear friend or a family member, I like to hear Ajarakoumo allah and not desole pour ton frere or sorry for your brother unless you are my French or British friend. It’s OK to tell me bonne fete if you are my French friend, happy holidays if you are my American friend, but please say Eid mobarak if you are my Moroccan friend because only then, I can feel that thing, that “je ne sais quoi” that exists between us, I’ll be able to feel that we belong to each other and that there’s something special that I loose with other friends but not with you, and that is what translation takes from languages, their souls and spirits.
You are all right. Usually the translator, chooses the expression that he finds equivalent in the other language, depending on which effect that expression had on him/her. Which means that two translators wouldn´t necessarily give the same translation. Learning a language in my opinion, is also learning another way of thinking. The best way to learn a language is not to try to translate it to your own, but to take it the way it is. Many expressions are related to historical, religious or cultural, ethnic events. And to understand them we need to know these events as well. That means learn the culture, the religion, history and ethinc groups using that language. You all gave good examples, the coran would never be better understood in another language than arabic. Words like hchouma, mbarek aouachirekoum etc, cannot really have the same effect on us if translated. Talking about emotions and feelings, is easier in french or english than in arabic. I can also say that the common language you have with some people, decides also what kind of relation you have to that person. My nephew for example, is born in New York. And when he behaves bad and we tell him don´t do that, he knows deep inside that doesn´t mean what it says; and he continues to behave the way he wants to. But when I tell him in english, don´t do that! Or if you don´t stop it right now, there would be no Mc Donnald´s. Then he knows that in english it´s serious. Amazing , especially when he´s just a small boy. He does it instinctively.
Il y a beaucoup de travaux dernièrement sur le sujet. Ce dont vous parlez est gnéralement ce qu'on appelle le rapport avec l'étranger (en référence à Antoine Berman). Le sujet est passionant et m'intéresse absolument...
L'équivalent dynamique de "hchouma", terme à forte connotation culturelle serait quelque chose comme " soit raisonnable". Si j'avais à traduire le termes, je le ferais en utilisant une expression comme" n'as-tu donc aucune pudeur?"...
Je suis pour l'acceptation de l'étranger dans la langue d'arrivée.
That was pretty interesting, I ve got the other question; do you think that people with multicultural background, think more about multilinguage abilities, do you think they express better their feelings and toughts ?
"Hé ! bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau.
Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau !
Sans mentir, si votre ramage
Se rapporte à votre plumage,
Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois."
>>do you think that people with multicultural background, think more about multilinguage abilities, do you think they express better their feelings and toughts ?
In a way yes. But the problem remains always that some expressions exists only in some languages, and not in others. And since each language represents a culture, then I think the issue is cultural. For instance, a subject is a tabu in Morocco while it´s an actual debate in Netherlands.A deutch-moroccan would almost by instinct talk about it in deutch without any problems. But as soon as someone would name that issue in arabic it would be a tabu again.
""""do you think that people with multicultural background, think more about multilinguage abilities, do you think they express better their feelings and toughts ?
En général, une personne ne peut être parfaitement bilingue ou multilingue, même si elle merie deux cultures différentes. Il a été prouvé qu'un personne préfère nécessairement une langue à une autre pour exprimer ses sentiments les plus violents (la colère par exemple...
La capacité d'exprimer les sentiments et la pensée relève à mon avis de l'émotivité d'une personne, non du nombre de langue qu'elle parle...
Une personne polonaise m'a dit un jour qu'elle était incapable de compter qu'en polonais...
Lucky me, I was sinking a lot, but I found out that I am thinking in moroccan dialect whatever langage my toughts are formulated.
But about computations the easiest and quickest way to solve an equation was by accounting in french. Sounds weird ! But there is surely a "hikmah" afterwards.
allahu aalam, and thanks for sharing !
"Hé ! bonjour, Monsieur du Corbeau.
Que vous êtes joli ! que vous me semblez beau !
Sans mentir, si votre ramage
Se rapporte à votre plumage,
Vous êtes le Phénix des hôtes de ces bois."
""""But about computations the easiest and quickest way to solve an equation was by accounting in french. Sounds weird ! But there is surely a "hikmah" afterwards...
Dear Almotanabi I join this forum a little late and I just finished reading one of your messages. Particularly the one where you mention CORAN translations. I am asking myself about all the emotions arab muslims have toward the holy coran. Kids start hearing and learning Koran while they are in the primary stages of childhoods. At these stages, they are not able to understand the language of the holy book and in many cases they learn it by heart without understanding the meaning of the words. At least this was my case. In addition as a kid, you do not have the critical mind to be able to discuss with you parents or other adults. So your interaction with the holy book last many days, weeks, momths and years on this basis.You hear Al Moaadin, and the nice voice of Abdo Bassit abdou Assamad and others singing the coran in the radio. Through many processes and experiences at home, in the mosque things become sacrilised in your mind. Each word, each sentence has a tremendous effect. So God is speaking to you personally, and the language is not french or english but arabic. So your brain will have many difficulties in getting the required distance to look at the arabic version of the coran as an ordinary book. I think if kids get the chance to learn the arabic language as a language and others disciplines like mathematics etc,, Then they will have some background to read and understand and discuss the coran with the required distance. Many non muslims convert to Islam and they are very convinced and pragmatic muslims.
The issue of translation is not just a linguistic one.
Je me permet de te contredire. J'ai toujours adoré le rythme du Coran, mais je n'ai été abasourdie grâce à la beauté de son Rythme et de son langage qu'après avoir entamé de longues études en traductions. Ma volonté de reproduire ce Rythme vers le français pour un ami francophone qui s'intéressait à la question m'a fait réaliser et voir des choses que je ne voyais pas avant... La lecture de plusiuers écrits sur la traduction, la prosodie, le rythme, etc. m'a fait comprendre que tous les autres livres qui existent dans le monde ne sont que des livres. Le Coran est autre chose!
Chèr (e) xara Je ne met en question la beauté de l´écriture. Votre message et votre relation avec le coran ne font que confirmer ce j´ai écris. Amicalement
Dear Almotanabi I join this forum a little late and I just finished reading one of your messages. Particularly the one where you mention CORAN translations. I am asking myself about all the emotions arab muslims have toward the holy coran. Kids start hearing and learning Koran while they are in the primary stages of childhoods. At these stages, they are not able to understand the language of the holy book and in many cases they learn it by heart without understanding the meaning of the words. At least this was my case. In addition as a kid, you do not have the critical mind to be able to discuss with you parents or other adults. So your interaction with the holy book last many days, weeks, momths and years on this basis.You hear Al Moaadin, and the nice voice of Abdo Bassit abdou Assamad and others singing the coran in the radio. Through many processes and experiences at home, in the mosque things become sacrilised in your mind. Each word, each sentence has a tremendous effect. So God is speaking to you personally, and the language is not french or english but arabic. So your brain will have many difficulties in getting the required distance to look at the arabic version of the coran as an ordinary book. I think if kids get the chance to learn the arabic language as a language and others disciplines like mathematics etc,, Then they will have some background to read and understand and discuss the coran with the required distance. Many non muslims convert to Islam and they are very convinced and pragmatic muslims.
The issue of translation is not just a linguistic one.
Dear Krim,
I agree with every word you said here, I went to Ejjamaa since I can remember and learned the Quran exactly the way you did, I agree we can never take the required distance to look at the Arabic version of the Quran as an ordinary book, or be able to judge any of its content on that base. I don’t think I’ll ever be able to consider it to be just a book for the same reasons you stated. We shiver just by touching this book and our hearts race and we run out of breath when we read it. It’s in my view, as if it has become part of not just something we learned, but something we are, the ultimate holy contact between one and God…and therefore, we will be, forever, unable to talk or debate it with the required distance for objectivity, let along questioning any of its content. But now here’s where I personally may have some problems and differences with others, I believe Muslims should open the door for people to talk and discus the content of the Quran and examine it closely, they should not go after anyone, Muslim or not who dares to ask a question about the Quran if we believe that our holy book is the word of God and therefore the right book. It’s stupid to expect foreigners to feel what Muslims feel when they read the Quran, it’s simply IMPOSSIBLE, abut this those not mean they couldn’t understand or debate it. We need scholars who can debate the holy Quran in French, English, and every language possible. It’s important because it’s the only way to tell the world, if we so desire, that the Quran is not what the fanatics and the terrorists made it to be, and that you can believe in the Quran and still highly respect the Bible and the Torah and other religious books and their followers and live side by side with everyone. I hope I’m not getting in trouble here, Just kidding,
In effect, the Quran is not only a book we can lean it by heart, kiss it and then put it in the book-case ; but we can understand the heart of God's messages and transform them to action witch we can do every day.
Many Muslims consider the Quran as a book and forget what It brings to us as message, and who can transform it to good practice.
We must understand the message by interpretation and link it to nowdays. So we must debate our interpretation to ensure that each other share the commune view.
So, we forget the essential of the Quran : interpretation and debate.
Thinking is an import aspect of human life. I think then I exist as Discarte put it. So if the answer is YES to your question, this means some nations are in a better position for better thinking and hence beter life style and development. I do believe however that no nation is penalized by its language and hence all languages are equal in allowing a relatively similar discription of a any concept.
In other words I beleive Thinking is not governed by Language because Languages are the ouput of Thinking and thereis no way a child process can govern a parent process.
This can be illustrated by our brain functionning. It is proven that the brain just make associations to understand things. For example if I say "fire", the brain will associate heat with this word and if I say "naar" or "feu" the brain will also associate heat with it. So that the meaning in our brain does not come from the word itself but comes from the associations created in the brain by previous experiences. In other words our brains do not care about our languages.
The other argument for my view is that any concept in any language can be coded in binary mode and processed by a computer. This means all languages can be canonized in streams of 0 and 1. This shows that the language used has absolutly no impact on thinking.
The only language that truly affect our thinking is the mathematical reality, for example when I say 1=1, I can say one is equal to one or un egal a un or wa7id yossawi wa7id and still carry the same meaning and the same thinking... This is why mathematics is called the queen of science and in regard to your question I would say No, thinking is not governed by conventional languages[like arabic, english, french or others], it is governed only by mathematical language.
Thinking is shaped by language but not dependant on it.
As you will notice, actual thoughts are usually in a language, and usually in the language appropriate to the context in which you have learnt to deal with that situation, eg. if you study mathematics in french, then mathematical computations are easier to do in French.
Language is an innate human capacity, even those children brought up without any exposure to language create some form of primitive language of their own.
But thought cannot be dependant upon language, as there are different forms of thoughts and ideas, some of which do not have words for their expression, as you will find when translating from one language to another. And I am sure that there are ideas for which no words that we know exist, these ideas are still awaiting expression however they can be thought about - although it is difficult.
Language is usually embedded in a context including behaviour and culture. So language will reflect these factors, and also shapes people's behaviour and culture by providing eplanations and 'easy methods of explaining' events. For example, in english the phrase 'Muslim fundamentalist' was created by the media, but as people in the society 'learnt' it through hearing it often, it then shaped their conversation and thoughst in terms of explaining certain events and possibile world events.
Also, an improtant disctinction, language is hard to separate from context - words mean different things in differen contexts, while thought (I think) is probably relatively the same across contexts.
elcapone not stupid at all your question, I see it very clever, but before to dig into that supposition let define the language or more appropriately what is the word "language" for you (your definition of the matter)
Elcapone, if you were the only human on earth - were you born and then abandoned to grow up alone? Then probably language would not be important, you would probably think in a 'wordless' manner. But if you were on earth with your wife only, then how would you communicate? You would probably create a mutual language, something I have seen where two people don't share a language, they create some words of their own. In that case, I think language would be very important to you.
Language; use of agreed words and cultural or spontaneously occurring gestures to communicate meaning.
Here it’s my definition about language, of course it's my perception and you're not obliged to share it with me.
Language is a signs or sounds which are defined to express my feelings and my thinking, to describe every thing I saw, I imagine, I want... The sign or sound can execute by various manners, gestures, picture, mouth, or stones,...
To avoid any confusion in interpreting my sings or sounds, I give them a code explicitly as grammar, animal picture,... or implicitly in this case depending on the context, for instance when I put a sun on my picture stand with my wife and the sea behind us, that mean we’re in vacancy, probably in morocco, you know it's magic
chargement...
