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Your advise on my situation with a moroccan guy
7 September 2005 16:29
Ciao, i am Georgina from Italy Milan. It is the first time i visit this web site.
I understand you are mostly moroccans here so you could help me in the understanding on this once very precious person and now.... i dont know anymore. I always tent to describe the situation starting with the worst part of it but of course my relationship with this guy has had its tender lonìving care moments which of course i wont describe. Here is my story:
well the essential of my story from day one, i met this guy, he is called Adbelfattah and is from Ain Chock Casablanca, in a train station, we looked into each others eyes and smiled and a few min later he approached me asking if the train coming was going to a certain place, i answered yes im going there too. During the trip we exchanged a few words i told him i was married , but i was not in reality, but was seeing someone, so since i like very much couscous and mint tea, he asked fpr my mobile to offer me a tea since he was working in a take away moroccan shop, i went and from that day we are pratically inseparable, he was calling me at every hour saying "please come i need to see you even for a few mins" then if i would go he would say "stay more stay more".
He left morocco in 2002 headed to spain with a visa that he said his father paid 5.000Euro in order to obtain it. In spain he had an aunt and cousins but during the 7 months he has been there he did not do anything good, actually he was drinking and getting drunk and had small problem with police for disturbing and aggressive behaviour. Although he has a diploma the only thing he could find for work was dishwasher in a hotel.
Well leaving barcelona for the problems i described he tries to enter Italy throught France with an expired visa and so the police took his passeport and his digital prints, he then went to some friends in a small city around Milan but no luck also there and then finally he reaches my town he arrived in February 2003 and i met him in May same year.
So he couldnt apply for a regular permit coz they would have found out he was still in italy after he got expelled, we started to see each other every day althought he did not have a red cents to take me out. To be honest i went out also for a long time with some quite rich men and that is not what excites me (that my man is rich) If there was some work for a few days as construction, moving furniture, painting factory, ecc he would go for it usually through other moroccans that knew his situation, and then with much pleasure he would have paid for my lunch or small presents.
In the mean time he was living a bit here and a bit there, i mean he could not afford to pay no rent, and on April last year after the flat where he was living with other 4 moroccans and, i have to say, in terrible conditions, cockroaches, dirt, bad smell, well the owner of this flat wanted the flat back coz nobody was paying rent in months so Fattah started to say, "we are always together, we spend every spare min together, if you love me and you know the situation let's rent a flat just for the 2 of us" in the same period , actually before that he started to talk about getting married, one thing that i still remember clearly, at the very beginning of our relationship he phoned at his parents and passed his mama and sister to me on the phone we were able to understand each other good speaking french. That was for me a clear sign of what he felt for me...
So carrying on the relationship yes i managed to find a small one bedroom flat to put the contract under my name and actually he was living inside, i was still at my mama and travelling a lot coz my work was in Roma, (Milan - Roma is 550KM) soi put the money in advance out straight away, i called a friend to live with him that was working regularly anf giving me half of the rent each month, and Fattah was working yes and no, actually more no then yes, somehow the money for beers was always ready...Well he then called his papa tellng him to send the documents in order to be able to get married with me here in Italy, his papa told him it was not good to marry me coz i was not moroccan and not muslim and older, my papa tells me not to marry, cos he is a moroccan, he is muslim and younger.
We have 7 years difference, he 25 me 32, phisically you would not tell , of course i do seem older when i speak, i was living abroad by myself and supporting completely myself at the age of 21, (absolutely not common here in italy where the average s are that at 30/35 years old people are still living with mom and dad, and they insist that you live with them!!!! That is my beautiful country Italy!)
I am objectively a beautiful mediterranean woman (i say this because i entered the U.S. 5 times and latest april 2005 where in Nyc Airport and Seattle i have seen some maghreb or north african anyway, married or together with some real fat women, really big and fat and dressed terribly) so he tells me everytime "i cannot wait to go to casablanca bringing back a beauty like you as a wife, he says "Zyne dyali, zwina hobbino dyali, be hebbeck, ayati" and he is beautiful too, with those big green eyes, that he took from his mother
Anyway life goes on ,i end finally the relations ship i had before knowing him and i dedicate completely to him, i support him and when he can, he gives me some money back, but you can count it only on one hand the time he could give me some money, in the mean time those certificate from morocco that would have enable him to get married expired coz i was not convinced to be with him, i mean you hear certainly some bad stories with moroccan man involved, here in italy, for example a moroccan married with a moroccan woman, threw her out of the balcony while she was pregnant 8 months, he denied but he is still in prison, she is alive and the baby too. we later saw her after giving birth working on the street as a prostitute, another married with a young italian woman stabbed her cos she wanted to keep some of the money she earned for herself and not sending this money to morocco, she is not dead and she still say that the husband was nervous and drunk when he stabberd her (!!!!!) When i asked fattah his feelings on this he said that those women were bad and they deserved it in a way.... I received myself some slapping in my face and he is big and tall, so it hurt, i gave the favour back immediately though.
Anyway, we went through some really hard periods, without work, he got nervous at times and bored and listless at other times... After a few months he starts again with the marriage, saying that he needs desperately to show me that he is a good man, he is feeling so low that i have to support him, he wants to take me to Casablanca he wants to share the mortgage of a house here in Italy with me and all those other beautiful
thoughts. Arriving at present times, the documents have been done and now we have 5 months remaining to set a date and we are married. You know what, i cannot in any way compare my story with those seen on the net, in which 2 persons fall magically in love without seeing each other in person, touching each other, smelling each other and so on, i have always had my Fattah close to me, even when i was i Rome far from him for a few days, i was double checking him with some unexpected phone calls to some of his friends
he is straight and honest, once we were going under a very hard period i was far and very cold with him, and since he is beautiful he met this older woman that approached with and told him stay with her that she would have helped him out and so on she had children and she said her husband was in jail, some friends of him saw this lady and said she was quite old and dressing like a teen ager. Any way he told me about this short "break" he had, my friend say he told me to show me he can still pull another woman and so on...
So my fear is this, we have now every day some issues on all sorts of problems, latest on my natural nailss that are too long! You believe it? The fear is this, what if he stays relatively calm and quiet just untill after the wedding and then once set for the regular visa he starts to impose to me certain things that now he doesnt do coz i could leave him? He told me all the times after our fights," i get agry and tell you my point coz im really interest at you and want a future family and share joy and bad period with you and one day with our children, if i was interest in getting you for the Visa i would have said always yes and do as you said utill the day i would have left you..."
But still the moment i think about our future together i say what if and what if....
Please your opinion on this...
With thanks, Georgina Veronica
7 September 2005 17:46
Ciao Veronica,

I'm very sorry about your stituation. I have the following questions for you:

Do you really know what you want in life?
Do you know what your dreams are?
Does this maroccan man reflectes your dreams?
Is he the man of your dream?

You must reflect seriously and honestly to these questions. Then apply the answers to these questions into your current situation.

If the answers match your current life with this man, then go for it as this is your dream life. Otherwise, end this situation and run-away very quickly.

Life is too short to spend it in regrets.

I wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

8 September 2005 09:03
Najib, good morning....

You ask me what do i want from life.... mainly to stay out of problems, to lead a good life, to try to maintain a good health and body, and the most important thing is to start my own family, with a good man, and have our own children.
You know Fattah has a good heart but somtimes his 25 y.o. come out, i mean at times he does things that reflects the fact that he is so young. Or may be he is just that way.
This is mty first relationship with a moroccan and a muslim. I already accepted the fact tha eventually our children will embrace Islam and that does not bother me at all,me i still dont know i will eventually convert only if this desire will grow in my heart.
You know now italian men seems to be scared from marriage they tent to postpone it and scared of having children, in Fattah i found a men that would love to have children at a young age in order to be able to see them grow and guide them.
I fear also the fact that eventually he will become strict with his religion. Really i heard the most horryfing stories, on how a muslinm man can change toward the wife after the marriage. I was born in Italy , grown up in Italy and from 20 to 25 years lived in London and entered for the 3 months visa time 5 times the US, so i've seen and done what i had to do, i want to show off my body only to my husband/fiancè i dont like to get drunk, i have the bad habit to smoke but eventually that could be stopped, i mean i know how to take care of my man, and my muslim man.
But why then on earth i do feel that he may want to marry me for the papers?????
I've read so much on moroccans contacting through the net canadians and americans and with the excuse of making them falling in love after they get their visa.... ciao ciao!!!
You know i was never married before. nor have children, and being Italian, with a sicilian father, which i'm very proud of, i tent to give to the marriage an extremely high value. Do not forget that my country guest the Pope, so even if we may not go to church we always have that feeling of a presence.... I know you probably get me anyway. I want a marriage to be only one in my life and possily a life long lasting one.

I was honesly hoping on some more interest in what i posted here. Above all coz from what i understood here you are mostly moroccans living abroad so you could have some points in order to give me your opinion.

Thanks for the next answers.

Sincerely, Georgina
8 September 2005 10:15
Ciao Georgina,

I have read your story with great interest and although I am a man, muslim and moroccan, I have to say that your story does not look good.

I myself just met a special someone and although at first I was not physically attracted to her (but she is beautiful!), I took the time to get to know her and to understand that we share values and interests. I am 28 years old and she is 23. I trust she is the one for me and she thinks I am the one for her. We now are in love, but we knew we were perfect for each other even before falling in love.

What I am trying to say is the following:

1 - I do not believe that Love is a solid ancher for a marriage. Love is a feeling and it eventually goes away (Sorry to be this lunt!). So one needs other 'cements' to build a strong relashionship upon

2- The way you describe him, Fattah seems to have way to many issues to be ready for such an important step: He has legal issues, he has a drinking problem, he does not know what he wants to do with his life and he strikes me as a lazy person (again, sorry to be this blunt!)

3- You are older, more experienced, more mature and more independant, both financially and morally. You are at home, he is not.

4- He cheated on you and there is absolutely no excuse for that. just ask yourself how he would have reacted if you did the same thing to him just to show that you too can get any man you want - should you want to!

5- He has hit you (absolutely inexcusable)

As far as the religion goes, Islam is a wonderful, open and tolerant religion. Unfortunatly it is being abused by ignorant people who do not know the actual reality of Islam. A man has the responsibility of his family, his wife and children. He is the head of the household and as such it is his duty to provide shelter, food and education. A woman's wealth is hers and hers alone. Should she chose to help her husband and her household, she can, but in no way she is obligated to do so!

Lastly, you wonder why you have this gut feeling that he wants to settle down with you for his papers. Experience tells me that it is probably the reason, but he also can be very much in love with you! Whatever the case, you cannot go ahead with such a project if you hav e a single doubt in your mind. You can be scared, of course. You can be scared and worried about the unknown, about the future, about the finances, but you can't be in doubt.

Please accept my apologies for the harsh comments, but I trust you came to this forum asking for honest opinion and advise and this is what I truly think.

Best of luck!

8 September 2005 17:45
salam georgina,

it seems to me that you are not sure of your feeling toward this man yet as najib canada says.

if you are really in love you will not have such as bad ideas in your mind

my advise to you is: stop thinking negatively and be optimistsmiling smiley
9 September 2005 10:30
Salaam aleikum to you too.

Omar your words are straight and beautiful. thanks.
Wajdia, shoukran for the thought.

I am now in a situation that i still dont know how can i manage to cope. I sleep terribly and smoke a lot of cigarettes.

You know AbdelFattah is straight and genuine, that i have to admit, and i know he is, last nite we were talking about us and that is it... He keeps saying that if i'm in love with him it should be natural that i want to marry him and because of this also enable him to:
walk without fear (of the police)
find a steady job
give me his part of money for food, rent and all the other things
start our own family and look forward
be able to go to morocco together soon.

Good Lord i've been day&nite dreaming on this, and not only dreaming since the project to try and start this chapter of my life was concrete, we went together to the office to set the papers for marriage. But i cannot help thinking that he may, i repeat, may do this also for other reasons...
But the disgusting story of even thinking about getting married for the papers..... that was something i was unaware of. i know that a lot of time there are the so called white wedding: the person in need of visa pays another desperate person, they marry, they keep contact just to fool the police and customs and everyboby keeps their life and asa possible they get the divorce.
Once when i was real mad at him i told him, "find the money! somehow find it, give me 5000 euro, we marry and 6 months and one day after we divorce, and you pay for the divorce" He said "how can you have the courage to tell me this " and similar things....
Something that also made me sad an aware was that, knowing that my parents are against him, he didnt want me to tell them that i was gonna marry eventually.... I was so angry at him.... I mean my parents should know that their only female daughters, i have 3 younger bros, has married without telling them? He says that now he can show nothing to my papa so he though it was better to tell them in a second time. I admit that my parents never wanted to meet him.

Please is is true that generally moroccan man want to have a younger wife?

And why on earth he gets angry everytime i ask him something about some customs of the Islam religion?

One moroccan lady that has divorced from her moroccan husband told me that moroccan man are so much contradictory, they like to state some of the points of islamic religion for others but then they behave opposite to what they preach, Fattah for example wears yellow gold i heard the muslim man could not wear it. And drinks beer. Not now since he is prreparing for the comin Ramadan.

I also learnt with very much pleasure how to cook harira for him, and when talking to his dearest mama and sister asking advice on moroccan dishes, though i dont eat no meat or fish of any sort since 12 years. and will be like this all my life.

Is it true that muslim man generally look at us, european or american women non muslim as kind of prostitutes? Good lord somebody can describe me this man.....

I am terribly helpless, i have nobody to talk straight to about my relationship.... my best friends think he is looking after something, though they have never disrispected him, i wouldnt have allowed a similar behaviour toward my Fattah....

On the french forums on this site i've read about women marrying sans papiers but could not find nobody with my issues and clues....

9 September 2005 11:43
that's the point and thats the magical question

"He told me all the times after our fights," i get agry and tell you my point coz im really interest at you and want a future family and share joy and bad period with you and one day with our children, if i was interest in getting you for the Visa i would have said always yes and do as you said utill the day i would have left you..."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2005 02:37 by ZouhairIbnouAbiSalma.
The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep …
9 September 2005 22:54
Ciao Georgina,

I've reread your mail as well those of the other people.

Just want to clarify some points with you:

The man you are with now is not a musulman (not yet anyway) for the following reasons: Everything he has done so far is forbidden by Islam, namely drinking alcoohol, lying, cheating, hitting his partner or wife, lying to his parents, etc... A true muslim doesn't do this.

What you read or heared about men getting engaged to women (or women to men) for papers only has nothing typical to maroccans or africans or other countries. This has to do with bad people and women alike. Many mixed couples live wonderful life but they don't go out to advertise it like pople who have bad experience.

Always look at a person as an "individual" not as a group.

Finally, my gut feeling tells me, at least for now, your dream life is not with this man. I certainly suspect that it's hard for you to take the decision to leave him but it's much better for you in the long term to be away from this man.

PS: Your man behaviour and acting has absolute nothing to do with Islam. It's his own problems.

I'm sorry if I feel angry (it's not my intention to hurt you) but people acting like this man disguste me.

10 September 2005 06:11
Hi Georgina,

I certainly can not say what your boyfriend thinks or what he wants from you because I haven’t heard his version of the story ......I ‘m also not able to tell you if you should marry him or not.....nobody is anyway.... you’re the only one who knows him.....from what you said I see you’re very worried about your life with him.....for me this means you don’t love him really ...your feelings about him are mixed with a lot of doubts and hesitations ...therefore they’re not strong enough to marry him .... then if it’s so you’ll never have any doubts about your relation .....even if people come to you and tell you bad things about him you’ll never believe my opinion unfortunately you don’t have many choices.... there are two possibilities : you marry him and you take risk he could leave you after he gets the residency...but you’ll be not so hurt because you were aware about this fact ......also you will have to confront your family because they were against him from the begin... or you leave him now’s hard and takes time to forget him but then you’ll be get to make a decision ....and assume it......

one more thing...don’t tray to have a guaranty because there is no one ...even with Italian man you’re never sure your relation with him will be successful for the whole life..

Good luck in whatever you decide....
11 September 2005 14:51
Dear Georgina,

I'm so sorry to hear about a sincere woman suffering so much because of love for a man who is not being honest with her.
Please don't marry this man. Your relationship sounds a lot like what I went through with my husband. Although he was working, and his conscience troubled him more than it appears to be bothering this man. My husband was very charming, very intelligent and of course very loving. But after marriage he changed. I don't believe he married me for papers, as he could have had those in the end on his own. Papers may be a problem in your case though, please do not be offended by this comment, it is in no way a reflection on you, it is a product of economics in Morocco and the vision of the 'west', and also some very badly behaving people who feel they have the right to take from others.

The real reason I am writing about these things that I would rather not talk about is the way you describe the relationship. It is very intense, very romantic, filled with lots of new experiences like cooking harira and talking to his mother, etc. It is a beautiful time to live through, I know, I had something very similar and it was unlike anything I'd ever experienced. But at the same time you are compromising your beliefs, supporting him, and taking abuse from him, as I was. I know that there is probably a lot of good in this man, however at this point in time he is actually behaving extremely badly towards you and towards himself. Unfortunately, although this man probably does love you, this is not the basis for marriage, I should know. And after marriage it is true that he may probably change because his ideas of 'wife' are different from yours.

The unfortunate truth about my experiences is that my husband's understanding of what a 'wife' was not something I could live with - nor something that any other woman used to dignity and free thinking and respect from others could live with. I am very worried that this may also be the case with your situation, as a 'girlfriend' (as I found out to my horror afterwards) is regarded as little more than a prostitute by some 'Muslim' males who do not practice their religion by having relationships before marriage. They don't understand the concept of 'girlfriend' as it exists in European society, for the most part. What you are doing is respectable in your culture, as it is in mine (although given the chance I would have behaved differently given what I know now!), however in his it is regarded as a major sin only done by those with no other options to live by or with terrible morality. However this does not stop him from probably loving you.

Then, also there is the question of Islam. This man sounds like he is going through some very difficult experiences, and yet he is not following his beliefs (by the sounds of it). Here you have the dilemma - he may change to become 'religious', and actually practice Islam, which I have to say is a wondrous religion and if he practices it with sincerity and integrity then that is the best course for both of you - however, if this were to happen, he would soon want you to follow him in this.

However, there is another possibility that he may try to apply only the parts of the religion that suit him (and may harm you), and use this to justify bad behaviour towards you and others. In this case then it would be very hard for you, especially as you don't know all of the religion in order to disagree with him, you may make excuses for him as I did.

My advice is this:
Examine your beliefs and what you are attracted to in this man. It may be the intensity of the feelings, and the family commitment which is lacking in other cultures sometimes. You may find it with someone else. It may be you are attracted to Islam, in which case you will certainly find it elsewhere, and perhaps in a form you can much better live with.

Either way, from my experiences, I would advise you to not marry this man, unless he begins to practice his religion sincerely, and in this case, only after a long period of time (without being with him) to make sure he is genuine. Until then, you are only seeing a part of him, and you are at great risk of being lied to about many things (Moroccan men are extremely good liars unfortunately, I know they are not the only ones though). You have probably learnt a lot from him, accept that as a gift from God, and then set about finding someone that does not bring you pain. What I realised was that even though a person can bring much joy to you, if they bring you equal or greater measures of pain then the relationship can't last. It just becomes too damaging and exhausting, and nomatter how much energy you put in, or what you change, they will never be satisfied with it. And you weren't put on this earth by God just to be used by someone else who will never be satisfied by what you can give them.

And I hope that God is with you in this time as well to guide you, praying (if you are a believer or otherwise) may guide you to the best path ultimately.
All of my concern and I wish you only the best in your life, and for the man involved as well. May God take good care of you both.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2005 02:56 by laure21.
12 September 2005 16:16
Hello Georgina,

I read your story and the replies with a greath interest. I understand that it´s a big decision you need to take. But that is not the only reason for your doubts, I suppose.
I think you need to know this man much better. You need to spend some more time toghether, in order to clarify everything. You need to know him better. His attitude, his dreams, his points of views etc.. But never find excuses for a man as " laure21" said. You need to impose your ideas too and see how he reacts on them. You are the only one who can make a decision. But one thing I can tell you with a greath confidence. Never accept or forgive a lie, cause honesty is a very important ingredient in any relationship. You want to be able to trust your husband, and not always doubt him. But how can you do so if he lies to you? Never accept or show any understanding for disrespect, violence and agressive behaviour. Cause that shows the ability one man has to solve his problems, and how much he can controle his behaviour and his unger. An agressive man will always get agressive, if you cannot agree with him, or if he cannot get what he wants.
You can actually learn a lot about a man just from the way he solves the problems he faces, and how he deals with people he cannot agree with.
You don´t have to hurry, give it some time and see. You don´t have to marry his right away.

Laure21 had some good advices in which I agree with her, a part from that moroccan men are good liers. I am a man and I´m moroccan, and I´ve never been afraid to tell the truth. And a friend lies to me then he´s no longer my friend.

God bless you all.

Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things. Russell Baker
12 September 2005 17:03
Ciao Georgina,

My advice is clear and simpel. I would never ever stay with a guy who hits me. This is my advice from one woman to another. A man who cannot control himself is just not worth it. I would sacrify myself financely but never emotionly and physicly. I think your guy is someone who will hit the road as soon as he gets his papers. I mean you are helping him and loving him, and still he has the guts to hit you???? Thats's a strange way to show somebody who has done a lot for you some respect. A man who hits a woman is not a man!! He is not worthy of your love. And he is not a muslim to, I mean he drinks alcohol and uses probabely other stuff. A real muslim knows what respect is.
I am sorry to harm your feelings, but I hope that you will make the right decision.
13 September 2005 10:13

I think Georgina hasn’t got time to know him better....from what she said I suppose he is putting pressure on her to marry him since he is living illegally in Italy....

hope we can hear about Georgina soon....

Take care

14 September 2005 09:48
Dearest All. Ciao!

Good morning and thank you everybody for the latest replies. I was unable to connect from about 3 days and am happy to read your differen point of views. Shoukran.

I think Ilhem2 has got the point. Fattah now is putting me under a lot of pressure and i mean a lot, a lot a lot of course coz he is currently sans papier in Italy, he tells me "why do you wanna lose time? I need to work so i can show you what i am able to do for you. Please why dont you get this"
And just to tell the truth he does not lie, i mean he is not a liar what ever i liked something or not he tells the truth anyway, that just, as i repeat, to give him what belongs to him. And he konw now heis not a good muslim and says that with time and the help of Allah he will become a good one. And this reminds me of the answer of Laure21, to which i feel for the possible similarity in our stories...
Probably i also made my mistakes in this relationship.. of course i made a lot, first when he was talking about marriage i never ever told him" Hey baby listen, do not ever mention a possible wedding with me based on these premises. Let's just spend time together trying to enjoy at most, life is short but dont you even think about marrying me" Or something like that.... Why didnt i do that? Coz I was also taken by his lovely and positive thoughts about our future: a house, some future children, that i also thought about the names Adbellatif if boy and Shererazade if girl...
the summer spent in Morocco, the respect for his daily prayers and the holy month of Ramadan, the joy of sharing the good and the bad of the life we are leading together.... man! how much i wanted that....
Italian men are good men really, but at the moment the generation that could fit a man my age is kinda scared of commitment, plus the typical italian mother adores the son and allows to let him stay in the maternal house as long as he wants, treating him with food, freshly laundred clothes and stuff like that, sometimes the italian mama also gets treated a little bit bad by the sons but she usually dont mind. So it is difficult to go out there and find someone ready to commit, start a family and seriously thinking on children without fear. fattah offered me this, of course we would start from zero, really.
Cali you think i should wait, but this is not possible for him.
and for me too this is a situation very hard on me to be handled. The only friend that i have here in Italy that has known and understands the moroccan reality, of course generally speaking, tells me to marry him anyway.
I explain, she says " Anyway you love him and are attracted to him, no matter how you force not to see him or if you manage not to see him for one or two days, then you miss him always badly and dont appreciate the evening spent without him (true) and you have been knowing him 2 years and half on a daily basis, so give him this damned chance and see if he is genuine or not, give yourself a year, and you and him a year, if he does not do the right things then apply for a divorce straight away, knowing you, you would suffer more from leaving him now with the doubt that God may have sent you a real good man, "dressed" not to be quite one to test you, than at least you can say i did it and now i know how he is really, bad or good."
These phrases made me think a lot. If it should go bad, by the time i would obtain the divorce, that Italy is the longest country in the world to obtain it (4 years average i swear) i would have the time to know another man and contemplate another life with him.
I dont lie when a say that in my country a wedding is something very well planned and borns after loooongs thoughts, time, calculations, i mean different from oter western or eastern countries.... So i sometime say "Ok georgia come on give the guy a chance, go for it, you are not giving a leg off or a part of your body to him, just the possibility of Showing You, like Fattah keeps saying"
I also agre with some of you when i read that the good relationship with mixed cultured couple are not written on the net. You just find the worst one.
And somehow they affect you...
A friend of fattah, with expired papers, married 4 months ago a lady, widow of 60 y.o. heis the same age of Fattah. You know she knows that he will live his life in the future with a woman that will make him a father, but since sometimes we go for a chinese restaurant or a walk on sunday together i really see him genuinely very affectionate with her, and worried if she is not good or something... he kisses her sweetly and they laugh together.Differently from fattah this guys does his 5 prayers a day and dont drink nor smoke....
But the situation of this lady is 100% sifferent from mine, i mean she was already married, she couldnt have children, she has now a young men close to her, i mean in my opinion she gained rather than lost.
Again may be i didnot explain good about Fattah drinking habits. he does not drink heavily and when drunk he is not aggressive, he can "hold" several bottle of beers, and when really drunk he maintain calm,but what he likes most is spending a nit in with the 2 of us on the sofa, watching 2M Maroc, drinking his couple or 3 bottle of beer, (i dont drink usually) with some olives and cheese and pistachio and smoking his Shisha that i also like, listening to moroccan popolar music. So this also represent my favourite nite in, as with age, or simply growing up, a nite spent at a crowded club full of teen agers can be not the first options, generally speaking.
Fattah does not use at all any drug, nor smoke cigarettes or other smokable drugs. I would hide this if difderent.
In the mean time my life goes on with such a heavy weight inside...
by the way today it is my birtday, i am now officially a 32 y.o. woman...
Reading you with a lot of interest,
With my respect to all of you, Georgina Veronica
14 September 2005 11:03
Just to correct myself, 5th line from bottom,
I would NOT hide it, if different.
(Yes i have to admit, my natural very long nails, that Fattah hates, are starting to give me problems on typing correctly,with one finger i touch three buttons!!!!!)
14 September 2005 11:30

Happy birthday to you Georgina and wish you all the best...
14 September 2005 15:29
Well, may be he is not that bad as we tought after all. What can I say, good luck and may the almighty allah bless your marriage and give you some wonderfull kids.
And happy birth day to you

Tanti auguri e buon compleanno. "In bocca al lupo" come dicono a Roma. smiling smiley

Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things. Russell Baker
14 September 2005 17:01
Ilhem2 merci habiba!

And for Cali: crepi il lupo!!!! As they answer in Roma!!!!
Perfectly written italian, complimenti!!!
But do not leave me like this please please.... What do you mean when you write "may be he is not that bad after all"???

14 September 2005 22:39
Georgina a écrit:
> Ilhem2 merci habiba!
> And for Cali: crepi il lupo!!!! As they answer in
> Roma!!!!
> Perfectly written italian, complimenti!!!
> But do not leave me like this please please....
> What do you mean when you write "may be he is not
> that bad after all"???

Grazie per i complimenti. Volevo solo dire che forse non e cosi cattivo come abbiamo pensato. Perché noi sopra tutto non lo conosciamo cosi bene come lo conosci té. Noi abbiamo risposto second al l´impressione che abbiamo avutowinking smiley

oh may be I should have answered in English grinning smiley

Usually, terrible things that are done with the excuse that progress requires them are not really progress at all, but just terrible things. Russell Baker
15 September 2005 05:42

in English please....don't undestand Italiano sad smiley....



are we invited to your Moroccan-Italian wedding grinning smiley.....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2005 05:43 by Ilhem2.
15 September 2005 11:21
ma tu hai studiato italiano? or you are using an extremely good on line translator service? Or you have an italian co-worker?

Guarda ti faccio ancora i complimenti, sicuramente sei stato in italia un pò... magari per lavoro o avevi la morosa italiana? magari al centro/sud? Si? Fammi sapè se vuoi!

Ilhem2 can you tell that i DO love him? (!!!)

15 September 2005 12:03
i have read your dilemma and many of the responses...
i would be lying to you if i told you anyone without papers would,nt be looking at marriage as an option to stay in a country if that was a way forward for them......
but... that does not mean that you do not have a future with this man and that his feelings for you are not genuine! yes he has issues but nothing that cant be resolved!
it is not only moroccan men that have slapped or hit their partners, or change after marriage..there are plenty of english men that do the same thing.
my concern is the objection from your parents and possibly his... this will definetley make things harder for you as you both will feel a sense of not bieng totally accepted and those feelings can run deep.

about islam the fact that you do not object to him raising your children in a muslim way is great but it sounds like he has a long way to go before he becomes fanatical!!! so i would not worry about him imposing strict islamic rules on you! as long as you are respectful to the religion that is a great start.
and finally.......
marriage can not be perfect before youy decide to sign up!!!! if you truly feel you could live your life with this man untill the end and are prepared to work hard to make it work.... then say bismillah and allah will be with you.

15 September 2005 17:12
Bentlebled, ciao.
In a way i do agree soooo much with the words you wrote,first you call it "dilemma" well, you couldnt find a more approproate word...
Regarding the fact that he hit me three times yes of course that does have nothing to do with the fact that Fattah is moroccan, i have lived in England 5 years i know how british man can be not for personal experiences but heard and seen on friends..
You know of course it is hard for me to understand what does it means living illegally in a country, basically the next time he gets stopped for a check, if he finds a very meticolous police officer he will be put in jail for a certain time and then put on a plane paid by italian governement back to casablanca as during the last check they photocopied his passport, and took his digital prints....
Regarding the parents.... yes i had a hard time explaining to them my relationship with fattah, my papa is very concerned about the age, he says i need an older man, my mama is scared that in the future he could take the children somewhere in marocco or not allowing me to dress as i want or go out for a coffee with a girlfriend!!! This is a general opinion on muslims man not only in italy as you all may know already, i'm sorry to say but this is a very common idea deep rooted in the mind of the most. That is not an issue for me.
Of course i love them but to be honest with you I have to stay and to cope with my husband not them, and plus they never liked any of my previous relationship!!!

Regarding Islam, he contradict so much, and i truly hate when he does that. He simply take something out of the Holy Q'uaran and kinda change to his comfortability, and i've seen he is in good company anyway as a lot of muslms do that.
I appreciate very much your last quite, that marriage cannot be perfect untill you sign up!
What can i say... i agree totally.
I still think afterall that the "soul" of fattah is good, may be he lost his head a bit as soon as he left the father's rigid rules back home.
Honestly i am ready to work hard in order to obtain a good marriage, but now i know that when i was born, when God distributed the vices and the virtues, he probably poured a little too much of indecision and hesitation over me.... I know that if i was really and totally blindly in love with him i would have done it already without even thinking about it... But the process of growing up mean also to ask yourself questions and think carefully before acting...
15 September 2005 17:42
your last words are very true,
you have to lead with your head as well as your heart, even though you may be in love with him if your head has doubts then the battle begins!!!!
think hard.... a man that hits a woman..whatever his situation is wrong, dont set yourself up for a life of violence, you really should not sweep this under the carpet it should be seriously adressed with him if you intend to live with this man for the rest of your life!
and if you think that you can tolerate the odd slap?...then what happens when you start a family... your son learns by example that its ok to hit a woman, and your daughter to think its ok to be hit by her husband......
15 September 2005 18:24
Hi Georgina & Happy birthday !

I have being reading you updates with interest & i see that you having a lots of issues to overcome for this relation to work .

Italy with its customs , the social set up , the Stubbornness , the closness to accept others & the bad reputation my people have ( some of it is self inflected i know )
add to this the pressure from friends ......

We have to reminber its easy to juge others
You talking about Islam & your partner & do not see the importance or if he sticks to his religion has anything to do with it !
if he wear jewllery or not ,you should be asking yourself :

do you love this man ?
could you help him ?
are you willing to adapt to his way ?

stop looking at the negatives , in any relation you find good & bad
Italians between them do not have issues ?
chineese ?
French ?

Yes your man need this marriage quickly to sort his situation , you do not need to be a rocket scientist to work this out !
immigrants all over the world use marriage in some cases to sort their situation , Italians too, Kiwis , australians .......................

So put your hand on your heart & tell your self is this relation for me ? am i ready for this ? .....

do not go into the loop & start talking about religion .....whould he leave me ....

No one could give you guarantees in any relation being to a Moroccan ,chineese or .......................

Please take this objectively as its not a dig on any one they are the fact as i saw them

I wish you good luck in watever you decide

15 September 2005 20:00
Pourtoi, first thanx for the happy birthday!

On how you talk about italy you seem to know this weird but very beautiful country, so different from north to south, and our stubborness (yes very much!) yes the closeness to accept others but the big heart also is legendary and the tolerancy and acceptance to others above all in south of italy where i proudly repeat my papa comes from the beautiful island of Sicily.

Yes i may discuss on certain issues about him and the way he deals with his God and his religion. Let me explain, in Italy, usually everybody believes i God, everybody has been baptised, everybody has a crucifix in the house, but, but very few young people practise, me neither, i kinda hate priest and churches, but i dont brag on the bible or oher thing i honestly dont give a damn about it,with respect, i have respect and believe in God up there it is a relation that anyone creates in his own way, and more than anything Holy Mary that i've been visiting so many times in Lourdes France.

Fattah keeps me telling things that the very beautiful religion of Islam has as sort of principles and then does the contrary!!! You believe it? I mean i repeat isnt it true that yellow gold would not be permitted on man? Please tell me.
But he wears it, the first birthday i spent with him i bought him a very nice silver bracelet and he said " Nice but i prefer yellow gold" I was astonished... Yes yes i know i should have said back then "Listen you @%&*ç°# was nice to meet you why dont you go get yourself a lady that buys you gold after 2 months of knowing"
And deep inside of myself i dont care he is from marocco or wherever, i am just deeply and incredibly SCARED he could marry me for the blessed papers..... That is it.
Well.... my dear all.... that you kindly took some precious time of yours to read my story, a real life story, and i know i'm not the only one in this situation...
I've been put in this situation by faith or someone/something above faith and believe me i would rather give this present to someone else....

It seems i cannot come to a solution. In the mean time while listening to some beautiful songs of Deoudi, i daydream about me Fattah our babies in marocco for holidays
I know i may sound pathetic to some of you, and i have been appreciating any of your honest answers.

Bentlebled, by the way as you could imagine, no i cannot tolerate the odd slap, in front of some future children..... it terrifies me just thinking about it....
16 September 2005 03:45
Hi everyone,

I totally agree with pourtoi

Believe me Georgina you can talk about this problem with the whole world nobody will be able to tell you what to do.....the decision is yours....
16 September 2005 17:24
Hello Georgina and everybody

It´s actually quiet inspiring to read all the posts. I also found some good points in the post of bentlebled. And you, yourself have said something very thrue.
Georgina quote:
I know that if i was really and totally blindly in love with him i would have done it already without even thinking about it... But the process of growing up mean also to ask yourself questions and think carefully before acting...

I couldn´t agree more. But you really should work with him on his attitude toward you. I´m sorry to say this but you should be ready to leave a men, or throw him out if he lays a hand on you. No matter how much you maid him mad at you, and no matter how much you disagree with him. He must learn to controle his hands, his words and his behaviour. A man is physically stronger that a woman, but he should use that power to protect his familly ( wife and children) and provide them with what they need and not use that power on them. That has never been god´s will.
I once read a proverb of Benjamin Franklin and it made quiet an impression on me, so I want to share it with you. And please remember it whenever you want to forgive violence.
“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.” Benjamin Franklin

And about your question, yes I lived in Italy and precisely In Rome for 1 and 1/2 year and there I learned Italian. And yes I have had an Italian girlfriend in Rome. I do miss Italy, Italian food and speeking Italian sometimes.

17 September 2005 02:21
Hello Georgina,

Happy Birthday and I hope you had a lovely day despite these worries.

From what you've said, don't let someone prssure you into marriage. The best excuses are those which sound completely logical. But the issue is the way people change with marriage. To be married you need someone who can take care of you, financially, emotionally, physcially, and provide a stable environment for children who can respect him and also you. (and someone you are willign ot devote your tiem to takign care of also, as Moroccan men take a good deal of attention more than other 'cultures', in my opinion)

Having a 'relationship' is very different from that, it needs much less from him and from you. You can survive his bad moods, violence etc, (which may also change when he doesn't need anything from you) but what would you do with children who want to know about religion or who may start to treat you the same way that he is (at his worst)? I know it is very romantic and feels like 'home' now, but how would you feel spending evenings on the couch smoking shisha and drinking if you also have a yelling baby to look after that he may not think is his responsibility to help with?

The problem with 'giving him a go' (which is what I also decided) is that afterwards if things do not work you will be that much older, and perhaps with children. That option is very painful to even think about, you at least need to be sure that if this were the case financially at least you would be ok? Is there a financial safety net if you can't work due to looking after children? And if you stay married, can he afford to support you so you can have children?

I'm sorry to ask these horrible questions. I had many people trying to dissuade me from marrying, and asking me these questions, and I just thought they were being racist. In fact, race has nothing to do with it. It's about the difference between some cultures, what he is doing is not very good by Moroccan standards or by his religion. Probably by Italian standards he is behaving reasonably well ( I think?). In this case, if he were doing things that were terrible by Italian standards then you would avoid him, because of worries about his morals and personality. He is behaving badly way by Moroccan standards, with the same wories attached I think.

At the end of the day only God knows if it is a good idea for you to marry, and your experiences may be different from mine, God-willing.
Maybe a good way of telling is to look at his attitude to other Italian women? Does he respect them and treat them well? How does he treat other Moroccan women? And is he good to his friends? Does he listen to others and try to help them, or is he scornful of them? Does he behave ethically when no-one else is watching or when there is nothing in it for him?

Take good care of yourself and sorry for the hard suggestions, I'm sure there is a lot of good in this man as well. It is better to committ to a situation that will benefit you, because a marriage will God willing last for a lifetime, and if it is abusive it will just wear you out and waste your time and energy. You need to be surer than you are now (in my opinion).

Prayer I think is the best thing, may God guide you both.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2005 02:24 by laure21.
19 September 2005 15:19
First thanx again for my birthday!

Dear laure21,
please allow me to say that italian man are not that terrible!!!! Since you ask if that a behaviour like fattah would be tollerated in italy, not at all, yes there is the good and the bad everywhere, but generally italians are good men, right now as i repeat they are just excessively scared of creating a family or scared of the role that the woman wanted and reached in the society: so they might see us as successfully working and fiancially viable single women in that way they are a bit lost to see us in this new "dress" (Talking generally of course).

And regarding my self.... Fattah now is preparing himself to the holy month of ramadan, so he quitted completely the beers. He didnt quit asking me about going and fix a date for the wedding!!!!

And for Cali: you dont know (or may be you know) how lucky you have been to have lived in the beautiful capital of italy, Roma. due to work i also was in Rome for 4 years, i was in trastevere, vicolo della Scala, and loved it terribly!!!! Fattah came with me 3 times and while i was at work he would prepare some vegetarian rice 4 me, and plenty of olives.

These morning at work as i am now i found another of those blogs on American or canadian so enthusiastic about their "never seen never touched never smelled never kissed" virtual moroccan love, so excited about going to marry in Morocco and then bring back their newly wrapped up moroccan husband.

You know a few months ago i use to attack these women saying them what i though was the truth, so: helpless fat old bags with 2 or 3 failed marriages and children behind and stuffs like that, stupid believers, now you know what, i envie them.... yes i do i envie them, coz they are in that beautiful limbo full of sweet words full of pink and hearts.... that i miss so much, coz my reality now is fattah everyday reminding me that time is passing and we are going even more down, that i dont get him and so and so....
Yes today for me is such a weird day....

Hope truly that your one is better than mine.

talk to you soon. Sincerely, Georgina Veronica
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