Hamas is out, what does it mean really?

Morocco # English board

23 November 2006 17:27

salam alaykum

ilham

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this not gonna happen if the whole moroccan women are wearing head scarf

excuse me ,what the development has to with whole moroccan women wearing hijab , if they choose to why not ? i don t see problem between wearing hijab and being productive.
unless you are talking about women bar tenders or stripper as job position well we still can import foreigners. winking smiley

just kidding .

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we should find a middle way to gain their trust and meanwhile to maintain our traditions….

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keeping our tradtions and opening to the new world is not possible

i am just confused here as per you ,do we need to keep our islamic morale value and move on with them or drop them bcoz you find it heavy to care .

and whom is trust are you looking to gain.

sarah70

23 November 2006 17:54

salam alaykum

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Ilhem2
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chelhman
Doesn't transpire from your writings, Quran this, Sunna that, Prophet this...etc, I thought you grew up in a zaouia

chelhman,

I was gonna say the same...it's really pity....people growing up in our tolerant society but claiming a conservative Islamic governement....of her history I was expecting from her more acceptance to a mixed society...i'm really losing hope....

i think there is a misunderstood here guys , from where you get that i am kind of person who is reluctant to a mixture society for simple reason bcoz it is a fact we were and still are a mixture society .i don t need to repeat again myself i am against reform that dropped islamic moral value and instead promote western family value for simple reason western are economically socially ..developed

for the government stuff i think we can give people choice for ex for moudawana we can have 2 system 1 western and 1 shariia before marriage the couple can choose either to apply sharia (moudawana) or western one .but women has the privilege to swap any time, the rule will apply to the husband automatically since she is the one more suffering from divorce .

chelhman

23 November 2006 18:10

sarah70,

When it comes to development, there is no islamic values. Like I said earlier, Islam is not the only moral compass in existence, a western public servant is rarely corrupt, yet in rigid islamic countries public servants have no problem taking bribes. If islamic values were enough, we would be leading the planet.

Religion is a very little part of society, and above all, it's a private matter. It has nothing to do with running a society. Secularism, which you seem to abhor, is the natural evolution of a highly educated society, once citizens can think on their feet, public institutions emancipate themselves from religious ruling. It's unavoidable. Like the Borg say in Star Trek : "Resistance is futile" smiling smiley

For the "government stuff", what you're suggesting is a legislation "à la carte". Ok, here's what I want then : I want to have my four wives (shari3a law) but I want to have a modern law apply if we divorce, I want half of what they own. And during marriage, I want of course my harem "old style". smiling smiley

Ilhem2

23 November 2006 18:28

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sarah70
excuse me ,what the development has to with whole moroccan women wearing hijab , if they choose to why not ? i don t see problem between wearing hijab and being productive.

.

how would you have enough investors or tourists if the country is a conservative Islamic country....consedering that tourism is an important industry for the country....tel me...

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sarah70
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we should find a middle way to gain their trust and meanwhile to maintain our traditions….
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keeping our tradtions and opening to the new world is not possible

i am just confused here as per you ,do we need to keep our islamic morale value and move on with them or drop them bcoz you find it heavy to care .

and whom is trust are you looking to gain.

don't be confused...just read my messages again...you are talking about islamic values amd moral not me....i'm talking about traditions....there is a difference...what I'm saying is enough of this speech of islam and blablabla....none of islamic nations is great and a lot of no-islamic countries have ashieved fantstic progress for their people....this doesn't mean we should convert to buhdism, christianism...or whatever...this means we should find an other way to go forther....as for the trust...we need to work with the western world if we wanna get positive changes....this will probably not happen if our beloved country will adopt an islamic regim (all women wearing headscarf is a sign of conservative regim)...and plz don't tell me morocco is not gonna throwout its islamic values to make the western world happy..ect....I don't mean that at all...what I mean is stop thinking that the religion is the only way we have ......because it's not....in the reality we are adopting the religionn since decades although we still quite behind...so it's time to change it...the religion should remain a privat matter....just like where you are living....however if you don't care how miserable are you people keep thinking the religion is the remedy for every deseas...in hudred years you will see and all people who think like you the result...that's up to you...it seems you have everything.....your point of view doesn't surprise me ....if you are hungry as the most of our brothers in our country your opinion will be different....you are so far away....once you get closer to the reality our country... we will talk.....

sarah70

23 November 2006 18:34

salam alaykum

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For the "government stuff", what you're suggesting is a legislation "à la carte". Ok, here's what I want then : I want to have my four wives (shari3a law) but I want to have a modern law apply if we divorce, I want half of what they own. And during marriage, I want of course my harem "old style".

read me again it is the wife who has the previlege to choose which one has to go for any time SINCE SHE IS THE ONE SUFFERIING FROM DIVORCE .PLS READ ME AGAIN
and you can not force me if i don t like to apply western law.at least i have binary position here you have only one. Clap

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yet in rigid islamic countries public servants have no problem taking bribes. If islamic values were enough, we would be leading the planet.

it is absurd if you find away to force people to obey the law why you don t do while having islamic value i don t see any contradiction spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

i beleive if people are fooling the order and law in both way they will do it.so our problem is not the islam here No no

chelhman

23 November 2006 18:56

sarah70, no no and no ! I want my four wives grinning smiley

Ok seriously, there is no system that can function with a double standard, it goes against the very first article of the Human Rights Charter of which our country is a signatory.
But you can amend, the moudawana did that, women have far more power and say when it comes to matrimonial legislation. Guess who was up in arms and demonstrated against it ? smiling smiley

For the corruption matter, you're twisting things to fit your speech : you say islamic laws should apply, because from you have been writing, it'll solve a lot. But I'm pointing out that in countries where it is applied to the letter, corruption is rampant, therefore islamic laws do not solve anything.
The problem is educational. When the idea that every bribe, however tiny it may be, is actually eating at the fabric of society morally speaking and that it is often spread forward on the price of commodities down the line, meaning that in reality everybody suffers, then once this reality is understood, the public servant thinks twice about taking the bribe.
1. because the law (the law of men) will punish him, the risk isn't worth it
2. his place in society, the image of his administration isn't worth the bill you're slipping him
3. the example he might set for others and especially his children if exposed.

In the West people think like that, because of a highly educated population in general. I'm not saying there isn't corruption in the West, don't get me wrong, it exists at a high level sometimes, but the deputy at an administration isn't going to ask for a 20 € bill to process your request faster.

So you see, islamic values have nothing to do with all of this, it's a faith, it's yours, it's private. But I understand where you come from intellectually speaking, I've heard those speeches before, they keep hammering that the Quran has everything to rule a country. It did, it had everything to rule a small community in the 12/13th century maybe but not anymore, we've evolved, the Quran also has the seed that would have allowed us to adapt, we didn't, we thought we were the Chosen Ones, we were too good and closed ourselves to the outside.

It's the fate of every civilization, the West will also probably yield to Asia soon, it's just history.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2006 10:18 by chelhman.

sarah70

23 November 2006 19:23

salam alaykum

ilham

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all women wearing headscarf is a sign of conservative regim

if they CHOOSE to wear hijab why it will bother anyone since we all beleive in freedom it will be normal thing in islamic the thing i reject is forcing women to wear hijab it is going both way.

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if you are hungry as the most of our brothers in our country your opinion will be different....

it is not the islamic value is the responsible ,islam did not ask people to be corrupt and sucks the wealth of the our country and make the poor people more poorer and the rich one more wealthier i am sure you know what is the islamic teaching about .so if you find way to let people give up to be greedy ,bribery, opressing people and corrupted i don t see why not while preserving out islamic values and identity.

sarah70

23 November 2006 19:42

salam alaykum
chelhman

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The problem is educational. When the idea that every bribe, however tiny it may be, is actually eating at the fabric of society morally speaking and that it is often spread forward on the price of commodities down the line, meaning that in reality everybody suffers, then once this reality is understood, the public servant thinks twice about taking the bribe.
1. because the law (the law of men) will punish him, the risk isn't worth it
2. his place in society, the image of his administration isn't worth the bill you're slipping him
3. the example he might set for others and especially his children if exposed.

let me complete that winking smiley

, you know the hadith ( la3ana Allahu arashi wa al mourtashi) your explication is good reason on why islam forbed the bribery how bribery impact our well being and then the whole society (tm).for the punishment it should be very severe specialy for those who sucks our blood.

chelhman

23 November 2006 19:48

sarah70, thank you so much for the hadith.
Now that you've had your fun with me, could you tell me why in Iran for instance where Islamic laws are applied to the letter, corruption is rampant even among the top religious leaders ? smiling smiley

sarah70

23 November 2006 20:34

salam alaykum

chelhman

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chelhman
sarah70, thank you so much for the hadith.
Now that you've had your fun with me, could you tell me why in Iran for instance where Islamic laws are applied to the letter, corruption is rampant even among the top religious leaders ?

the problem is with the corrupted people that hide their malicious plan behind any philosophy to strip the country from their wealth for iran it happened they used 'islam to get their dirty plan thru even i can not accuse all of them .but as i said AGAIN if you have plan to let people respect the law how islam would be a problem or obstacle to realize that.

please answer my qst

chelhman

23 November 2006 20:56

sarah70, Islam is not going to be a problem but it's not going to be the solution either, my example of Iran is case and point.

With all the rigidity of the system, with the fear of God and human punishment, they still take bribes, I'm not talking just about the top leaders like you did, I'm talking about the little public servants.
Only an awareness of the consequences of corruption down the economic chain through education can do that and evidently islamic laws have not been able to do it.

You can practice your faith with no hinderance from the gvt but every islamic group that wants power suddenly becomes mute when asked for a detailed plan on how they are going to run an economy for instance.
The PJD back home is mouthing off promises of a zero unemployment economy (see their website) but when asked how, everyone runs to the door or says God will provide.

One thing a lot of people like you, do not see or want to admit, your way of putting religion center stage is a form of protest against a world that is unfair, once you wore the hijab, you've made your point and then what ?

Communism used to fill that role.
But a protest is just that, nothing more. When the protesting is done, you need solutions. Right now, you're confusing protest and solution.
Your faith is private, nobody will or wants to take that away but it's not everything, the sooner you and others like you realize that, the sooner countries like ours can move on.

P.S : what ever happened to Hamas ? tongue sticking out smiley

LeMask

23 November 2006 21:06

chelhman, looks like you dont really understand what i mean.

why should Morroco (the country) be ruled by muslims? or non-muslims? or jews?
why cant Morroco be a country where there is many communities, and that every community is self ruled?

why should a muslim live under jew laws? or the opposite (jew under muslim laws)? it's not necessary.

let's say that this Casablanca you talk about is a big city, with a jew area... and in this area, jew laws have to be followed.
is it good enough for you?

and why should the Belgian tax payers pay for the muslims? it's dumb... why? cant the muslims have their own slaughterhouses? their own system?

it's good... but it's not necessary.
and why arent you talking about the muslim tax payers paying for the belgian slaughter houses the rest of the year?

but this isnt the problem... to speak about that, we jumped so many questions... let's come back for a second...

chelhman said:

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Islam is not the only moral compass in existence, a western public servant is rarely corrupt, yet in rigid islamic countries public servants have no problem taking bribes. If islamic values were enough, we would be leading the planet.

you see dude? this is the kind of things that piss me off. i call it lack of FAITH.
we have a great religion made of a very dynamic system. how dare you say that?

our religion have a solution to EVERY problem. the problem comes from the people who dont believe in god and choose their own way...
rather than to struggle to find the way god wants, you prefer to ask a man...
and once again... WE DID rule this planet for a time. there was a time when the Islamic world was a great empire.
but it failed... and guess what? because people (problably like you) started to care about the western world... they were corrupt by power, money, wine and women...

i advice you to stop a minute and to learn about your own religion. and then, close your eyes, and imagine a society where everybody follows this system. you see that buddy? yeah, that is what i'm looking for.

chelhman

23 November 2006 21:28

LeMask, I'll be brief on your "self-rule" system, we've been through that.
You can read our debate here :
[www.yabiladi.com]

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how dare you say that?

I'm saying it because it's a fact, read my previous post to Sarah70.

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and guess what? because people (problably like you) started to care about the western world... they were corrupt by power, money, wine and women...

Thank you for the imagery. So basically I'm a pig, who drinks wine and enjoy women. And that's all you see in the western world ?
The car you're driving with its GPS, the computer you're using right now, the TGV or Thalys you ride sometimes, the planes you fly...etc that's made from recitating the Quran and your wonderful system of self-ruling ?
I'm reading Ibn Rushd these days (thanks to Krim who pointed out what a great thinker he was), people like you burned his books back then, he found refuge in...Morocco, so you see, we've always been a place of tolerance.

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i advice you to stop a minute and to learn about your own religion. and then, close your eyes, and imagine a society where everybody follows this system. you see that buddy? yeah, that is what i'm looking for.

I just did, I closed my eyes and imagined your system. Now I'm going to find a building and jump from it. smiling smiley

Almot

23 November 2006 21:59

LeMask,
Just like what pissed you off in chelhman’s post, Lots of what you said piss ME off, only I call it hallucination from your part.
How dare you say that we have solution to every problem when we can't solve any? Not god dam thing? Did you read the subject Will Muslims Ever wake up? posted by Krim just today? No Buddy, it’s you and people like you who piss off every open-minded person in the world with their unbelievable shallowness and nonsense.
Yes we did rule once up on a time, but so did the Romans, the ottomans and the Greeks, what's your point if we weren't the only ones, it was just our turn and that's it.
And since you gave chelhman and all of us your wonderful advice and said : (I advice you to stop a minute and to learn about your own religion. and then, close your eyes, and imagine a society where everybody follows this system. You see that buddy? yeah, that is what I’m looking for,) first, we don’t give a fly what you’re looking for, because we know it: kill the west and Israel, have 4 wives and divorce them when you want, threaten anyone who disagree with you, strap yourself with bombs once you find out that getting a degree is really hard and requires a brain actually, and I can give you hundreds of other reasons more.
And “buddy,” since you seem to like this word, I advise YOU to put aside your religious books and read some other books, may be the bible, the torah, the book of Mormon, read about Buddhism and the hundreds of tribes in you neighborhood Africa who have religions as old as can be, and since you want people to close their eyes and imagine your make believe society where everybody follows this system, I ask you to OPEN your eyes and see what other societies have achieved for their people. It would be just fair then to criticize them because you’ll have the knowledge to do so, keep on dreaming, Buddy!

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2006 10:11 by Almot.

Almot

LeMask

23 November 2006 22:15

Almot yeah yeah, i know the story, every dude thinks he is superior, and every culture thinks it's superior and yadda yadda... i know.

1st : it will be the same for the western world...

and right now, they are asking us to abandon our culture to take a western culture, and some follow them blindly (chelhman would be a good exemple) and there is others who dont want to.

i'm different from them, i want something else. while chelhman is stuck on cultural things like architectur, cooking and language... i'm caring about freedom, laws, economics and religious duty.

they adopted a laic system, and i'm very happy for them if they like it. but does it mean that such system would work here?
look at their religious habits, it's very very light... why should we follow them in this direction? do i have to remember everybody that we ARE different?

we dont have the same objectives in life, we dont have the same priorities in life, we dont deal with problems the same way...

so if we copy what they are doing, then it's very simple, we are just denying our own cultural background...

many say that Islam is stuck 1000years behind... ah, thanks for reminding me that. so we have 1000years to catch up? so let's start right now...

but start NOW... stop talking about "love it or not"... let's start now...

and the first thing to do, is to refuse the people who dont know about Islam... first to go? westerners...
i need their technology, but i dont need their opinions... i need their skills... that's it.

and almot, your open minded ness is your problem... you try to act so open minded that you accept anything and everything, good or bad...
you say that we have to open our doors to the western culture?

niiice... so now, we have problems with alcohol and such...

and our lives arent better...

it's very sad, before taking (from them) the freedom of speech, and the freedom to get mad at the government and ask for results... we take what? the freedom to drink alcohol?
are we that stupid? we have to wake up dude...

i'm very open minded by the way, i accept many things... but i refuse many things in MY OWN LIFE... and this is my FREEDOM. and i dont need your benediction to think that smoking is bad and that alcohol is curse... and that i will thank the person who will make sure that i wont fall in these traps...

watch out dude... you are another kind of extremist...

chelhman

23 November 2006 22:30

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LeMask
and right now, they are asking us to abandon our culture to take a western culture, and some follow them blindly (chelhman would be a good exemple) and there is others who dont want to.

Are you doing it on purpose or are you not understanding what I am saying ?
How many times do I have to say this ? Nobody is asking you to abandon anything but to ADD knowledge to what you already have.
You can attack me all you want but I took and am still absorbing from every source of knowledge I can find,
I'm not abandoning anything. Again the concept of "the best of both worlds".
You must have a very low self-esteem or you live in an area surrounded with racists or, worse, you are running with a dangerous crowd of islamists, to think the way you do.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2006 12:27 by chelhman.

sarah70

24 November 2006 01:58

salam alaykum

chelhman

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sarah70, Islam is not going to be a problem but it's not going to be the solution either, my example of Iran is case and point.
With all the rigidity of the system, with the fear of God and human punishment, they still take bribes, I'm not talking just about the top leaders like you did, I'm talking about the little public servants.
Only an awareness of the consequences of corruption down the economic chain through education can do that and evidently islamic laws have not been able to do it.

we can not move on without improving situation of the majority of marginalized citizens , the whole society civil, government ....should help WITHOUT condition without challenging people with their faith (same song over and over.let me tell you if you as a citizen would like to contribute and be part of the engine that pull our general development train you will do that without condition regardless who is at the head of the government even you don t stand their ideology.

let me sum it up

there are many people are not serious about reform and development their only objective is to root out the country islamic values .
the serious people who really care, go until their enemies they jeopardize their life to help out.they don t tell people in need you have first to do or give up such and such then i will come to your to help .

those people are using and abusing reform to realize their absurd dreams you see here abuse can take many forms and faces .

zaki7

24 November 2006 05:58

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sarah70
salam alaykum

chelhman
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sarah70, Islam is not going to be a problem but it's not going to be the solution either, my example of Iran is case and point.
With all the rigidity of the system, with the fear of God and human punishment, they still take bribes, I'm not talking just about the top leaders like you did, I'm talking about the little public servants.
Only an awareness of the consequences of corruption down the economic chain through education can do that and evidently islamic laws have not been able to do it.

we can not move on without improving situation of the majority of marginalized citizens , the whole society civil, government ....should help WITHOUT condition without challenging people with their faith (same song over and over.let me tell you if you as a citizen would like to contribute and be part of the engine that pull our general development train you will do that without condition regardless who is at the head of the government even you don t stand their ideology.

Why not? That's how all the developped countries have been doing for centuries now. As a matter of fact, you see the few examples of theocracy in the world and you have an idea of how unsuccessful their model of government has been. We DO KNOW what works, it's a matter of applying it.

let me sum it up

there are many people are not serious about reform and development their only objective is to root out the country islamic values .
the serious people who really care, go until their enemies they jeopardize their life to help out.they don t tell people in need you have first to do or give up such and such then i will come to your to help .

those people are using and abusing reform to realize their absurd dreams you see here abuse can take many forms and faces .

chelhman

24 November 2006 10:54

sarah70,

Let's have a different approach, since I'm tired of repeating the same thing : how would you, through islamic values, advance our country ? Give me details, economically, politically, le't hear it then. At least, we'll have a basis on how you see things.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2006 02:06 by chelhman.

moirk

24 November 2006 14:05

LeMask
The way you answer Almot, Chelhman or myself illustrate the behaviour of many muslims of the last 600 years.
They live in their closed system. They think they can not learn anything from others. The truth is in the coran and no discussions. This is what I call religious confinement where your brain was shaped and your emotions about coran and isalm were enginnered. You did not have the chance to get other tools and others loops to look and analyse situations. You jump in responding to chelhman without taking enough time to think about what he is saying to you. This lack of respect added to the lack of the right tools characterize your world. A world where perrots cultivate arrogance and ignorance.

LeMask

24 November 2006 16:24

Krim, i know about that.
i'm not an expert of the Coran or of Islam, but i know that it's not a close minded religion/culture/way of life...

but are we really supposed to learn from the westerners? are you really sure? excuse me, but i need to use generalisation in what i will say next, forced to...

first, they are potential enemies, they prooved it many times... just look at USA's behavior toward Israel, Toward Saddam, toward all the corrupt in our countries. are you sure that i have to learn fromp these guys?

my conclusion is that you DONT have to learn from corrupt people, from criminals, from liars...

we share a lot in common with the western world, like the love of honesty, truth, hard work and bla bla bla...

but there is things that are opposed to our values... like alcohol, drugs, sexual anarchy (outside marriage) and more and more...

are these values "compatible" with our own values and culture?

my answer is very clear... HELL NO!

you see, we have our own definition of "good and bad"... so we copy what is "good" and refuse what is "bad"...

exemple, alcohol is defined as "bad" in our religion/culture...

so? what do we do? we refuse alcohol...

but if you look in our countries, we gained the alcohol habits from westerners... and if we were "close minded" we would be safe from these problems.

so, we were victims of our open minds... and left alcohol enter our countries... and this is a mistake we have to correct.

do you understand? i'm exactly talking to you about "controling" our lives...

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Give me details, economically, politically, le't hear it then. At least, we'll have a basis on how you see things.

okay, chelhman, here you go, i will tell you how an Islamic doctrine can solve our economic problems...

Islam asks for hard work... so a good muslim by the book is a hard working person... by definition.
so how a hard working person be poor?

explain this to me... go ahead. the answer is "impossible"... a hard working person is rich...

and if a hard working person isnt rich, then there is a problem... in the system, not in the person.

i know, a smart working person can be very rich... but are we trying to be rich and live confortably or to be the richest among humans? it's a no brainer...

in Islam, you are forced to work to live... because you cant make money without working.
and in Islam,you spend your money, because you have NO INTEREST in stocking your money... so the economy is growing, it's easy to live, because people spend their money and enjoy life.
Islam forces people to work to survive, so those who CANT work deserve the help of the others who can. Islam is a social religion where the muslims are brothers and sisters and they care for each others...

so even the man who really cant work, doesnt fear to starve to death...

in Islam, there is free credit, free credit gives the people the ability to gain the necessary capital to start their own bussiness without worrying about interests... so anyone have a chance to be master of his own life.

you see? Islam gives you hard work and excellence in work (part of the education) + a flourishing system giving the right for property (not like communists) + low tolerance to social injustice.

and i say that this system is perfect.

and of course, i'm not an expert in economics in Islam to explain it very well to you, but i'm proud enough of what i wrote. so? what do you think?
impossible? i personnaly think that god gave us a perfect system caring for our unequalities without abusing weaker people...

chelhman

24 November 2006 16:39

LeMask, I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Sarah70. I already know your views, we've been over them at length, they're incompatible with modern society.
Unless, as we said, you convert every human being on the planet to your brand of Islam. Good luck with that.

LeMask

24 November 2006 16:43

owww

(

i tried...

and i'm honestly sad to hear a muslim say that the way god gave us "couldnt work"...

and i dont want it to be compatible with the "modern society"... i really dont, the modern society isnt a nice society, it's cold, uncaring, people are looking for freedom blindly and reject responsability and duty... people are confused between good and evil, they worship money, look down on the hard honest working...

we live in a crazy world, and we are fighting hard to adapt to such world...

moirk

24 November 2006 17:11

LeMask
Where did you go to school ? Probably a school in Morocco.
Ask you grandfather if he still alife about the number of schools he had the chance to attend when he was young . He will probably tell you: there was no schools at that time. Then ask him about who did introduce and built the schools. He will tell the french. Then ask about the number who could read and write in the period beteen 1930 and 1940. He will tell you, some fquihs who learn Coran by heart and could write On LLouhaa. May be around 600 to 1000.
Then sit on your chair and think for one single moment and ask yourself how can that you are able to use a computer and discuss with chelhman, krim, Almot etc.
You will find out that thanks to what you call ennemies. The french......made it possible for you and for all those trying to blame the west for there miserable situation.

If you can learn useful things from anybody do it. This is knowledge.
You ennemies or what you call ennemies went for war in spain but they did not hesitate to translate and transfer the knowledge produced by the greeks then the arabs and on build on it.

People who did succed are characterized by the ability to use all sources of information without exception. These sources can be the Coran, the bible, the thorah, Karl Marx, Friedman, Ibn Khaldoun, Linis Pauling etc etct. They read, they think they discuss about advantages and inconvenients. these processes can last days, years. they do some experiments to test.........Judge the results. At a given time the decided to keep the positiv and forget the negativ. These processes still going on. You will find all kind of institutes tacking each area and in each area there are sub-area . This is because of a very complex world. You have million of documents, books.....etc Now the discovered the internet making the circulation of ideas and conceptsfaster. They do not discuss anymore in term of months, days, hours, seconds but in term of pico- and femtosecond.Progress is getting faste and faster
You are telling us read the coran and apply islam and you will be able to build a modern state.
Hcham Achouia

LeMask

24 November 2006 19:26

Krim dont worry about the frenchs, they are very weel, they took what they want in these countries and were forced out for obvious reasons.
if they were so nice they would be still here, and by the way, who said they arent here anymore?

it's not because we dont see them that they arent here.

and sorry, the french werent here to help us, but to gain lands.

it's like telling the black people in USA "eh, you could have been some black morons in Africa starving to death like animals"...

very funny, i know the song, and i refuse it.

if you care about the past, you can go further, when there was a strong muslim civilization.

but unfortunately, the muslims failed to work together and fought each others in very wrong ways, often opposed to the muslim values.

and look where they are now.

there was a time when Egypt was an incredible place, when Cairo was a city where everybody was rich and happy...

but it was destroyed because of the weakness of the muslims and a their inability to follow the path of god.

but they arent as good as you say...

zaki7

24 November 2006 20:51

so tell me something I don't "understand", the developped countries today are following the path of God and we are not? Is that what mekes them successful and not us? Does that mean that their religion is better than ours? Sounds like a theory that is not very positive to our religion!?

Let's keep religion out of the political equation, this will do nothing but exacerbate subjective feelings that has nothing to do in objective daily government duties. You cannot rule a country with the Koran, you rule it with a constitution. Get over it. The Coran is for you as an individual human being to get better in your personal life. It's not a political tool, it is not a propaganda tool that you can tweak here and there to justify policies and it surely is not a manual that covers managing the technicalites of running an economy or developping industries and so forth.

LeMask

24 November 2006 20:57

zaki7 you rise a good point here.
i dont really care about prophecies, but it's believed that the prophet Mohammed said that would come a day when the "Rumi" will be superior in number and better (good behaving) than muslims.

but their religion isnt superior, they have a faith... not really a religion. there is the christian faith... the christian religion have a huge load of human intervention, but i'm not very very sharp on this to speak more.

but yes, they have a lot of things we see in our religion.

and i personnaly link it with the fast growing rate of Islam, the better muslims and the converted ones. and you can hear them say things like "i'm glad i knew Islam before knowing muslims"... funny.

and you are right, the Coran is the consition to rule a country. get over it.

or you can accept that the Coran makes the individual, the individual makes the people, and the people makes the society, and the society makes the governments/consititution... and once again, you find the Coran at the end.

you should learn to respect the religious beliefs of the others and to stop trying to control people and let them be free.
i want the religion in my life, and i know many others all over the world who want the same as me. so why cant we do it? we dont belong to any government...

but in fact, the governments belong to us.

zaki7

25 November 2006 02:42

Euh, that is not my prophecy, it is your proposition, you said that if we follow the path of religion, we will be developped because everything is covered by religion. So allow me to use your very argument to tell if that's the case, does that mean that already developped countries followed their religion to get where they are, and if it is true, does that mean that their religion is more effective tha ours? sorry to trash your argument like that, but it is one that's very easy to dismiss because it is based on non-sense shortcuts.

Let me tell you now what you don't want to hear and why developped countries are developped, it is simply because they concetrate on science, knowledge, practical management, and the rule of law. They never refer to religion to apply these principles, because they don't have to. As a matter of fact, back in the inquisition when they used religion to rule countries, they were at the rock bottom of civilization. They only got out of there after the separation of church and state. the US is based on that principle, it is (not surprisingly) the leading economic power of the world. Same for all the other countries that follow after them. See the pattern? I am not talking theories here, but facts... Can you provide facts to support your argument in today's world where a theocracy is successful? If you provide none, I'll understand...

LeMask

25 November 2006 10:55

zaki7 dont worry! you trashed nothing.

where do you judge development? because they arent so developped.
they have a strong economy, a well equiped and stronger army... but it doesnt make them better.

you judge society on what? on money? this is dumb.

i'm sure that the family of a simple farmer in Morroco who cant even write his name is much better than the family life of some people we consider as the elite of Morroco.
same in France, i saw very educated people who were pure scum with no values. we see a lot of racism, egoism, nationalism, loss of faith, worship of money...

and looks like you do the same, you mistake money with developpement.

the objective is to enjoy life... and there isnt a lot of pleasure in life here.

and i dont see the relation between them using religion as law and us. Jesus didnt give them accurate guidlines... so their religious laws were man made. while in our religion, god gave us these laws.

and we never really followed them. and this is why we arent developped.

remember? we arent developped, and we didnt follow the religious laws.

dont mistake yourself with a westerner, you arent. whatever what they learned in their past, it doesnt work the same way here.

do i have to tell you that once more? we ARE different.

AyL

25 November 2006 11:34

Dear lemask ..
sorry to tell this .. but they re better .. u have a nostalgic idea about family life in morocco ... itsnot that good .. we e living in a century .. where we should fight and the best win .. and that what they did ..fighting to survive ..and prove themselve .. that s what made them better ... we were once developped when we were open to other civilisations.. we learned ..translated books .. i think in that period ppl understood that to develop we should export from others .. and tht s not a shame ...if they were better .. i mean in sciences .. culture..why not .. and even islam .. asked us to learn.. "otlobo l3ilma walaw fi e ssin"