Morocco # English board

RABAT — The Ministry of Education in Morocco has omitted from preparatory school curricula a Qur'anic verse, hadith and a photo of a hijab-clad girl, claiming that it moved to nip extremism in the bud.

"They omitted verse no. 31 of surat An-Nur, which reads: "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms…..," Abdul Kareem Al-Howeshri, the head of the non-governmental Islamic Education Association, told IslamOnline.net Tuesday, October 3.

He said they also erased a hadith narrated by Abu Dawood that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) cursed men dressing up in women's clothes and women putting on men's clothes.

"The Revival of Islamic Education textbook has been withdrawn from schools and distributed after the omissions," Howeshri said.

The ministry has further removed a photo of a girl wearing hijab and kissing her mother's hands from Al-Waha textbook, which also has to do with Islamic education.

Admitting the omissions at a recent parliamentary interpellation, Minister of Higher Education and Scientific Research Al-Habib Al-Malki argued that the move came to fight hardliners.

Howeshri blasted the minister's justification as unacceptable and implausible.

"The minister wants to impose a fait accompli though such a move negates the very sense of Islamic identity and the Constitution, which says that Islam is the official religion of the state and all laws should be in harmony with Shari`ah," he fumed.

Pressure

Howeshri, also the chairman of the Moroccan committee for Islamic subject teachers, said the government must have come under pressure to omit subjects from curricula already approved by specialized ministerial committees.

"Pressures exercised by women organizations known for their secular and liberal trend have apparently paid off," he said.

Women organizations have launched a fierce campaign against the hijab-clad girl photo and pressed for removing it from the textbook, IOL's correspondent says.

They said hijab is a poignant symbol of women's subordination to men.

Howeshri also said the move is part of a government policy to reform curricula in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

"Unfortunately some Moroccan officials, mostly leftists, toed the American line," he said.

The ministry's drive, in effect, is not unprecedented.

Last year, the ministry pressed for abolishing the Islamic studies subjects from the science section of high school syllabus.

It further proposed removing any references to "jihad" in the Islamic subjects.

So let me see if I got this right :
our ministry of education has removed something from the curricula that teaches women to be submissive, in essence teaching little girls that they are equal to boys.
Yes, I see how it could outrage some jackasses.
Can you spell "reform" ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2006 06:56 by chelhman.

What is the source of this article ??

La source: [www.islam-online.net]

The editorial inclination comes from a commitee headed by a certain... Qardawi:

[www.islam-online.net]

Abut Us: Our goal is for this site to be worthy of your trust. To reach our goal, a committee of the major scholars throughout the Islamic world, headed by Dr. Yusuf Qardawi, was formed. Its role is to ensure that nothing on this site violates the fixed principles of Islamic law (Shar'ia)....

You can see where this is going and most importantly where it's coming from...

Hi Krim,

Here's a source for that little nugget of information :

[www.islam-online.net]

Addendum : Sorry for posting twice the same link, Zaki's post appeared after I had validated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2006 10:04 by chelhman.

Just by reading " fixed principles of Islamic law (Shar'ia)...", my brain start shaking and asking :
dear krim do I have any role to play in your life since every thing is already fixed ?
I said no no no no of course I need you to look critically at all these principles. I do not want to be intellecrtually dead. Life can not be limited to accomplish my biological duties. Life is a dynamical process.Keep working please it is the dutie of any muslim to ask questions, change laws if these laws are old and not useful for humanity. So if every thing is already decided and fixed, there is no reasons to be born on this earth.

Quote

Krim

Keep working please it is the dutie of any muslim to ask questions, change laws if these laws are old and not useful for humanity. So if every thing is already decided and fixed, there is no reasons to be born on this earth.

Couldn't have said it better. This is the kind of principles that should be reiterated by the Ulemas.

But then again, wouldn't that mean that they would relinquish the power of interpretation of the scriptures to the people and therefore diminish their influence ?...

This field should not be left to the so-called Ulemas. In the last 7 centuries, our so-called ulemas have being cultivating obscuratism and mediocrity. They do not have the intellectual background to ask the big questions and look at their own tools of analysis and refelxion.In addition they have a lot to loose. Forget these hostages

Hi Krim,

I liked your take on the subject on the french part of the forum, once again we're on the same wave length.

About the Ulemas, they're becoming more and more like the Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell of the muslim world, some of them make millions of euros preaching through the Gulf satellite channels and selling their books and CDs.

In my opinion, these people are holding us back, they should be ignored simply because they are completely disconnected from the realities of the world. I would be curious to know the daily schedule of one of those preachers, what interaction could he possibly have with the daily routine and hardships of an average citizen wherever he may be...

Hello again,

This discussion reminded me of two episodes of "The West Wing", it dealt with the issues of taking old scriptures literally and applying them to our 21st century societies. But we are nowhere near having this debate with our religion.
For those familiar with the show, the first excerpt is a dialogue between Toby Ziegler and his rabbi, it dealt with the death penalty.
The rabbi was to trying to convince Toby to weigh in, in a case of a man about to be executed. Toby started by saying the Thora allowed the death penalty and quoted some of it to which the Rabbi replied :


RABBI GLASSMAN
You know what it also says? It says a rebellious child can be brought to
the city gates
and stoned to death. It says homosexuality is an abomination and punishable
by death.
It says men can be polygamous and slavery is acceptable. For all I know,
that thinking
reflected the best wisdom of its time, but it's just plain wrong by any
modern standard.
Society has a right to protect itself, but it doesn't have a right to be
vengeful. It has a right to punish, but it doesn't have to kill.

The second excerpt is a media file. It is self explanatory : (open it with Windows Media, it's easier)

[www.mediaresearch.org]

[www.mrc.org] (source in case of a problem)

Anyway, my point is, I'm still waiting for an arab network to air a show with a dialogue of the sort with an imam or a ulema. More and more education is done through TV shows, instead of airing insipid shows that do not entertain and do not educate, why not have the courage to challenge the dogma in the arab media ? Rotana for instance is the creature of Waleed Ibn Talal, he would serve immensely his own country and the rest of the muslim world if he would finance and air shows similar to The West Wing.
Just a thought.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2006 06:14 by chelhman.

Cluthy thank you very much for all the clarifications I see the issue from the same pair of glasses
Wa lhijab is not moroccan it is middle eastern I would be fine with a woman wearing the hayk like they do in Essaouira but not those ones that you sse now in Casablanca wearing the burka which is 100 % made in the 80s or 90 by those freak talibans in some salon de basse couture mediocre in kabul.
The women in Casablanca that I saw wearing that were also wearing gloves socks a specific kind of sandals to show an appartenance to a certain group to identify themselves
The saddest of all the things is that some 70 % of those women are not even self conviced about it , they just do it by pressure since many of them are illeterate, and in some case despite their practice of prayers and setra their level of spirituality is so weak.
Did we forget about Andalusia ??
To me someone who is imitating Madonna or Jennifer Lopez is equal to someone who is trying to fake a kabuli woman.
We have our traditions our costumes for religious events feasts work etc
If some people want to express their religion through outfits they can do it in the moroccan way and maybe not in the middle eastern or afghani way, of course it is strange and frustrating to some in Morocco including me.
Hijab is not proven in the quran please Sifaw could you share with us the sura?/
Sunshine all my respect to the ladies who wear the hijab my aunt wears it and I am happy for her because she chose to wear after her husband died so that conforts me that she wasnt pressured to reflect someone else's ideals.
I call the ninjas the ladies who are fully covered from hair to toes and that is growing in poor neighberhoods in Casablanca and honestly that is not familiar to the morccan paysage at all.
And also the guys who wear the afghani outfit, we have much beautiful traditional outfits that the afghani ones why not wear djellabas or wear tchamir because it came from the influence of the cassettes and books that these people sent us from the heart of the middle east
Sifaw I dont see Morocco being like Tunisia I see a favor towards a Morocco more open more tolerant and M6 will not give up that but he wont either give up our roots our values for some trade deals
The royal family that rules the country has all sort of ideals from conservatives to moderates and each has its conditions, beside M6 cant aford to do that since the biggest true muslim institutions all back him up and vice versa and I speak about the institutions not the ideological groups like jammaat or yassine.
Bottom line removing a picture of a 6 years old and her mom both wearing the veil and being isolated in the kitchen while ousama and his dad enjoy arranging the library is not a big deal
The veil was worn in Jerusalem by romans christians and muslims it has nothing to do with islam.

Powerful video and so true. See I totally agree with the points you are raising here. The problem with muslims is that at a certain point of their journey, they stopped Ijtihad and their brains froze. Why? I am still looking for an answer but one thing is sure, take the Coran, the Bible and the Thorah and you will see that first of all they are similar as to the message they are trying to convey (don't kill, dont' steal, etc..) but most importantly that they all contain strict teachings that were meant to be given as examples to people at the time the books were revealed. Ijtihad allows us humans to shape these principles so that they are compatible with our time without losing the lesson and the morale behind the teaching. That is what the jews understood, that is definetely what the christians understood. As to muslims, as long as 80% of them won't be able to write, read and have a "critical" say on things, life and religion, they will always be in the forefront of obscurantism. Unfortunately...

Quote
chelhman
Hello again,

This discussion reminded me of two episodes of "The West Wing", it dealt with the issues of taking old scriptures literally and applying them to our 21st century societies. But we are nowhere near having this debate with our religion.
For those familiar with the show, the first excerpt is a dialogue between Toby Ziegler and his rabbi, it dealt with the death penalty.
The rabbi was to trying to convince Toby to weigh in, in a case of a man about to be executed. Toby started by saying the Thora allowed the death penalty and quoted some of it to which the Rabbi replied :


RABBI GLASSMAN
You know what it also says? It says a rebellious child can be brought to
the city gates
and stoned to death. It says homosexuality is an abomination and punishable
by death.
It says men can be polygamous and slavery is acceptable. For all I know,
that thinking
reflected the best wisdom of its time, but it's just plain wrong by any
modern standard.
Society has a right to protect itself, but it doesn't have a right to be
vengeful. It has a right to punish, but it doesn't have to kill.

The second excerpt is a media file. It is self explanatory : (open it with Windows Media, it's easier)

[www.mediaresearch.org]

[www.mrc.org] (source in case of a problem)

Anyway, my point is, I'm still waiting for an arab network to air a show with a dialogue of the sort with an imam or a ulema. More and more education is done through TV shows, instead of airing insipid shows that do not entertain and do not educate, why not have the courage to challenge the dogma in the arab media ? Rotana for instance is the creature of Waleed Ibn Talal, he would serve immensely his own country and the rest of the muslim world if he would finance and air shows similar to The West Wing.
Just a thought.

chelhman, i'm sorry dude, but i still dont see where you are going...

about the Hijab... it's very easy to me. women have to dress in a respectable and modest way.
it's the requirement. these feminist who want to put the sexual life of a woman as a show are just crazy and way too provocative for my tastes. i understand the fight they want, but i really cant follow them.

it's up to the society to decide what is respectable or not, yesterday: hijab=modest+respectable... if today's society agrees that: a jean+shirt=respectable... then it's fine.

i dont have a lot of interest on this point... it's boring. girls? wear anything you want. but if you live in a sad society where good girls are mistreated for their clothes... then it's up to you to find a way to be safe from disrespect and harm. live with it.

the next one, it's homosexuality... the Muslim way of life is a heterosexual way of life... so i dont see the relation... if you are a homo, then why should you care about Islam? you arent concerned...

and where god said in the Coran to listen to USA? ... we will talk about Jihad as much as we want...
freedom of speech we call that. and by the way, Jihad doesnt mean war alone... Jihad is a very complex concept. it's none of their bussiness... and letting foreigners put their noses in our affairs was a big mistake.

cant we solve our problems alone? so stop this non-sense...

LeMask, read the posts again, I'm saying the Hijab is not a moroccan tradition, we don't need to be lectured by arab satellite channels about our traditions.
We've done ok without them for centuries.

chelhman, i would listen to anyone having more knowledge than me about religion...

and i wouldnt be shy, i will be without mercy, i will ask any question i have in my mind and i wont do anything unless i'm 100% sure it's fine. i have rights and duties.

but first, let's be clear on a point. there is NOTHING wrong in wearing Hijab... all these pseudo modern feminists and modernists can keep their talk...

what is WRONG, it's to disrespect women for NOT wearing Hijab... and FORCING women to wear Hijab... this is SO WRONG.

but i definetely dont think it's happening that much.
but i'm sure it's happening in the way around. a LOT of women are disrespected for wearing Hijab... they wear what they think is "safe"... and guess what? they are treated like enslaved idiots...

and i saw so many girls who had problems in their proffessional life because of their religious beliefs... and who is barking to protect them? no one... this is making me sick.

LeMask, again you're missing the point here.
We're saying that the hijab invading our culture is not moroccan, it is also the symptom of a conservatism and a rigor of thought that is not moroccan. Read the posts, we have our own traditions.

We're not iranians or saudis. We're different in some many ways.

chelhman what is the meaning of Morrocan?
it doesnt have a lot of meaning, are we going to turn into nationalists?
i wish we could forget these frontiers and speak as human beings...

i think that the Hijab is seen today as a religious symbol, so, for that, we have to protect it.

but we must not force it for the same reasons...

but i dont see it as a tradition from an arab country like Saudi Arabia... the women of the prophet did wear such things in the past... not the total Hijab covering the face (correct me if i'm wrong), but something similar...

i think that the women should wear something clean and respectable... and if it means somekind of Hijab, so be it...

but i agree with you on a point, let's forget the western fashion products... we have our own

LeMask,

You seem to live in your own little bubble, out of time, where you still think in binary terms.

Yes, Morocco is a country, our country. And yes, we think, not necessarily as nationalists, but as nationals.


forget these frontiers and speak as human beings... ?
This is really funny coming from you, now you're playing Ghandi ? when in another post, you're throwing a tantrum at the idea of a muslim dating a jew ?

I know your views on the subject, you're going to argue that we're invaded by western values blablabla, I've heard that a hundred times.
And for the hundredth time, I'm more worried about eastern conservatism taking over completely than superficial western cosmetics.
Our country has always been a perfect balance between those two worlds, but somehow people are being brainwashed into thinking that Morocco is in Arabia.

Hassan II used to say that Morocco was a tree with its roots in Africa and its branches reaching over Europe.
That's the way it has always been, that's the way it'll stay.
We're going through a storm, it'll pass, the hijab will fade and moroccan women will be moroccan women once again.
But as always, we'll agree to disagree.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2006 03:06 by chelhman.

chleman i dont see the contradiction... you are the nationalist who says "we are all morrocans" and "the baby will be a morrocan"... i'm the one who refuse to think that way.

for me, we are all human beings... nationality, skin color and such have no meaning for me. black or white, from Algeria or Morroco... it have no meaning for me.
i dont care about the color of your passport...

but i care about how you see life. if you are jew, then you want to live following the jewish religion. it's your right at 100%... if you are muslim, then it means that you want to live following the muslim religion.
if you are atheist, you want to live following the atheists actual way of life... and i would add that it's none of my bussiness...

second, as a muslim, i think that we have to live together and work together. so it's very important to agree with each others...
frontiers and such have no importance for me... they are made by a human being... a dude took a pencil and drew frontiers and added names... it's NOT important for me. i will have to deal with it(forced in fact)... but it's NOT important for me.

what i care for, is what my muslim brother believe in and do. humans arent perfect by definition, they will make mistakes... but we are able to repair what we destroy and to go further in evolution.
this is why it's important to have communication between the communities. we have so much to learn from each others.

and there is points we agree on, and these points are what makes us muslims... like the Coran, and the faith in the prophet's teachings (Sunna) and of course, the LITTERAl interpretation of the scriptures.

but i personnaly refuse the intervention of any outsider in this process... because they arent trusworthy. it's already hard to trust our own fellow muslims... so if you add up the foreigners... we wont be able to make it.

because after all, the objectives are simple... survival+evolution... making our lives better...

it's time to drop the overweight and to care for the essential. our lives... we need it to survive.

LeMask,

You whole speech is a recitation. You're not thinking on your own.

Each and every sentence you wrote can be traced back to the usual propaganda spewed by satellite channels.
Let me give you some examples :

...pencil and drew frontiers and added names


what i care for, is what my muslim brother believe in and do. humans arent perfect by definition, they will make mistakes
(this one is a friday sermon on its own)


but i personnaly refuse the intervention of any outsider in this process... because they arent trusworthy.so if you add up the foreigners.

(foreigners in this case is a non-muslim, that goes without saying)


LeMask, learn, analyse, think.
There isn't one original thought coming from you. It's like the way you're reading the scriptures but cutting yourself off from any outside source. The scriptures are too complex to be read and deciphered without a solid knowledge base.
It would be like trying to read without knowing the alphabet. Everytime we talk, you are simply regurgitating that you have been fed.
Don't jump on your keyboard to answer just now, think about it, use your head.

chelhman, i dont even watch TV. so i understand how you see it, but it's not the case...

so what? isnt it logic? i personnaly think it's great, and i'm very sad to see you calling it "propaganda"... from a fellow muslim it's very hard to take.

isnt it truth?
yes, a foreigner is a non-muslim, why should i ask a non-muslim to tell me how to live my life? or what believe in?
and i would go even further, why should i ask a human to tell me what to do or to think? why?

i have a religion, it means that i believe in a god, is there a better entity to follow that a omniscient, eternal, good entity like god?

so we should set a debate where we ask ourselves what god would want us to do. is god asking us to wear tons of clothes? is god asking us to force our women to stay at home?
definetely not... there is plenty of other topics we have to study...

but we are different people, why should we have a comon way of life? it's ridiculous...

different people = different life style...
i dont intervene in theirs, and they dont intervene in ours. and it's only justice... it's a very important part of freedom we often forget... it's called independance...

and you, mister the nationalist... you should care about independance... it's an important value for a morrocan.

but you give me NO argument... you just say "propaganda" and nothing more...

what is nationalism in religion? go ahead... explain to me.

and explain to me why we should care about foreigners in our religious topics?

back up your decisions and positions and maybe i will follow you... unless you think that i'm crazy?

The part in my last post about not jumping on your keyboard and taking time to analyse, obviously just flew by you.
My post bears the time 14:10, your answer came in at 14:22. Let's say, it took you 5 mn to type and post, that leaves 7 mn for the analysis.
Either you're a genius or "analysis" isn't in your vocabulary. Guess which one I favor.

Quote

LeMask

chelhman, i dont even watch TV. so i understand how you see it, but it's not the case...

so what? isnt it logic? i personnaly think it's great, and i'm very sad to see you calling it "propaganda"... from a fellow muslim it's very hard to take.

You may not watch it, but whoever is teaching you about islam is channeling it to you.

Quote

isnt it truth?
yes, a foreigner is a non-muslim, why should i ask a non-muslim to tell me how to live my life? or what believe in? and i would go even further, why should i ask a human to tell me what to do or to think? why?

No, a foreigner is one not bearing the same passport I do. It's a legal definition.
Nobody here is telling you how to live your life.
But from your writings, you are already following guidelines from foreigners, because your thinking process is definitely not moroccan.
We have never discriminated amongst each other, but for instance by your definition, a non-muslim moroccan or simply one having a drink would be a foreigner since you decreed on the other post that if a moroccan drinks then he's not a muslim.
Or did I get you wrong ?

Quote

i have a religion, it means that i believe in a god, is there a better entity to follow that a omniscient, eternal, good entity like god?

so we should set a debate where we ask ourselves what god would want us to do. is god asking us to wear tons of clothes? is god asking us to force our women to stay at home?
definetely not... there is plenty of other topics we have to study...

Like I already told you, our religion is about the quest for knowledge, it's not about following blindly a strict set of rules. We're not a cult.

Quote

but we are different people, why should we have a comon way of life? it's ridiculous...
different people = different life style...
i dont intervene in theirs, and they dont intervene in ours. and it's only justice... it's a very important part of freedom we often forget... it's called independance...

and you, mister the nationalist... you should care about independance... it's an important value for a morrocan.

but you give me NO argument... you just say "propaganda" and nothing more...

what is nationalism in religion? go ahead... explain to me.
and explain to me why we should care about foreigners in our religious topics?

Foreigners are already intervening in our culture, take the time to read my posts again. My views are quite clear on the matter. But if you jump on your keyboard without taking time to carefully read what people here are writing, we're going to have the same conversation over and over again. Read the posts and analyse.

Quote

back up your decisions and positions and maybe i will follow you... unless you think that i'm crazy?

Where did you get the idea that I'm asking you to follow me ? I couldn't care less about that.
This is a debate, an exchange of views, ideas, this isn't a recrutment center. As for backing up my views, if you took the time like I suggested to you, to read and think, you would have noticed that I always articulate my thoughts.
Something you are not prepared to do, you are just being defensive and using the usual propaganda that I've heard before.

Again read my post, I didn't say "nationalist", I said being a national, i.e belonging to a nation, in my case, I am a moroccan with a moroccan culture.

Let me give you a fact that'll probably make you want to jump your keyboard again :
I have more in common with a moroccan jew that I have with a saudi, a yemenite or an indonesian :
We speak the same language, we share the same culture, we share the same nationality, we share the same gastronomy.
It's a FACT.
Because that's what solidifies a people : a language and a culture.
My faith doesn't define me 100 %, it's only a part of me. Again, take the time to read and think about this.


And yes, when religion is being used as a tool for endoctrination, it is propaganda.
Whoever has or is teaching you about islam isn't giving the whole picture and is setting you up to constantly be phased out of your environement, specially if you live in a western country.

Take the time to analyse this :

why is suddenly islam being put center stage in our country ? We've been doing fine for the last centuries, but suddenly our fervor is being questioned ? Why ?
By the same token, why is suddenly islam center stage with european muslims, they were at least 2 generations before this one, I'm part of the second, we've had no problem. We took the best of both worlds and constructed our own identity.
So why suddenly this urge with the last generation to demand hijabs in schools for instance ? Is that to say that we weren't muslim enough ? And Moroccans back home as well ?
Speaking of "phased out" before, what would be the purpose of having an entire muslim population in Europe completely isolated within its environment ?

Think LeMask, reason. Take a step back, look at the chessboard.

P.S : by the way, we are completely off topic here. Let's try to get back to the subject of this post or we'll incur the wrath of the moderator.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2006 01:57 by chelhman.

salam alaykum



LaMask

i want just to clarify (i may be wrong ) what chelhaman stands on on all his arguments .


Morocco = population of arabs (invaders)and berbers .


moroccan identity = moroccan cultures "melting" pot of berbers and the ones came from al mashrik .


Coran = script ,we enjoy reading admiring (literature) and put it back on the shelf has nothing to tell us .


ijtihad = no limit it can go far as the opposit ,any one can do that .


oulema =they have to shut up , they are not smart as some rabbies .

for him anything with islamic culture has nothing to do with morocco ,if morocco girl wants to wear hijab she has to dig what old moroccans used to wear which hayek but actual hijab (head cover and decent not seducing dress ) is imported from almashrik .

but he is ok for any moroccan lady imitating any half naked western "icon" or following western dress AS IT IS for him it is not imitating it is freedom but it is not the case for hijab.here is the controversy .

chelhman

if you believe on freedom and justice it has to be for all of us not discrimination .

"lil kaabati Raboun yahmiha'.

ah chelhman, you are so unfair man.
analysis? i have a clear mind... i wont talk to you if i wasnt sure. i'm sure with clear ideas, but it doesnt make me an extremist... you just give me NOTHING.
i learn nothing from what you say, you say that you dont agree... but nothing more.

let's be constructive. or to begin with, dont put anything in my mouth. i like freedom. but dont make me say what i havent said.
i said that if i see someone drinking alcohol, i would think that this person isnt muslim...

do you understand? i said MUSLIM, and not FOREIGNER...

morrocan doesnt mean muslim... even if Morroco is labeled as a Muslim country...

and about the analysis... how much time do you need to analyse nothing? ... so i need no time to analyse nothing...

and plz, stop insulting me, i'm not a brainwashed dude... i have no one teaching me anything... i keep religion to myself. i dont have a lot of religious people in my neighborhood. and it's none of your concern.
i could call you a westernized dude or a traitor/bad muslim... and it will only kill the communication between us. so plz... let's keep it civil.

Quote

why is suddenly islam being put center stage in our country ? We've been doing fine for the last centuries, but suddenly our fervor is being questioned ? Why ?

doing fine? i'm not a historian, but what are you talking about?
we were colonized by the french and spanish. they were like in a jungle, they raped the country and we were defenseless...
today? we are trying to be a westernised arab country... our culture is disappearing... we are loosing our religion (radicals grow unfortunately)... we are poor...
of course, there is nice cars in the streets, and some naives think we are changing into a rich country... so? wha?
before that? ... the berberes tribes were living in "peace" (there was fights), they got slaughtered by brutal arab tribes... they converted in weird conditions (sometimes by force)...
and then, the arabs kept fighting each others for power... trying to take the role of god... and bla bla bla...

bah... nothing to be proud of... ah ah, you are right, we have a good reputation in gastronomy... YAY, time to get fat...

and come on... you dont know me that good, you are yourself victim... no, i'm the victim here of the stereotype... no, i'm not a hairy dude asking to cover the women in Europe. it's NONE of my bussiness... but i WILL protect the right of any woman who wants to cover herself because she thinks it's part of her religion. correct or not, there is no harm in that.

and excuse me... but i think that the litteral interpretation of our religion could save us from a lot of problemes...
poverty? religion asks to work hard and to help the poors.
uneducation? our religion asks for education, our first order is to read after all...

and more and more...
so it's sad to let people who dont know about our religion (foreigners) tell us how to live our lives... or to not follow it...

and thanks sarah70, but i understand him. the problem is that i dont understand WHY he is like that. i just cant follow him there. it's too weird...

Sarah70,

Your are misrepresenting what I said, because you are reading through the filter of your prejudice towards me, i.e westernized.

In this particular post, I said we are being invaded by an eastern conservatism and an arab, meaning the Gulf, culture that is not homegrown.

Moroccan identity is a result of its history, we've been invaded, colonized, had business dealings with Jews, Romans, Arabs, Europeans on a base that was berber. That's a fact. It is reflected in our culture, through the language, our traditional dressings, our gastronomy...etc

Now the illusion some are trying to force on us is that we are solely arab muslims and that we should cleanse ourselves from the rest because it is foreign.

I never said the Coran should be put on a shelf, read me again, I'm saying it should be read in conjunction with other books because you need to be knowledgeable to understand. Otherwise it is just reading and reciting like a perrot.


The Ulemas these days are employees of their governements, so they are bound by the length of the leash their leaders have left them. When they are not, they are becoming like evangelists in the US, businessmen trying to sell their products, books, CD... or pundits for Aljazeera and other channels.

As for the hijab, read again what I wrote, it is not necessarily the cloth that I have a problem with, it's the ideology insinuating itself in our culture through that piece of cloth.
And what's wrong our haïk or addal ? If the purpose is to cover oneself, we might as well honor OUR traditions.
Let me remind you that they are now moroccan stylists reviving those beautiful traditions, I've seen a fashion show on TVM recently, it is far more appealing and distinguished than the Gulf hijab.

About freedom, it's always funny to hear the word "freedom" from an ideology that curtails any sort of freedom for women once it's in place. Except of course the freedom to submit, since this is the point of this topic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2006 07:13 by chelhman.

LeMask,

You're saying I gave you nothing, I gave you a lot to think about, but you do not want to hear that, you have your structure of thinking and nothing I'm saying is sipping through and is even remotely understood.

I haven't insulted you, I challenged you to think and reason but since it shakes your deep seated beliefs, you take it as a confrontation and you think I'm stereotyping.
You've read me, do you seriously believe that my reasoning is simplistic that I would resort to stereotyping ?

What I tried to demonstrate to you through provocative thinking is that just as you feel attacked by a westernization of our country, others have a different view, which is that they feel attacked in their millenary tradition of openness and tolerance by an eastern conservatism far more dangerous to individual liberties than a cosmetic and superficial western style.
Women are bearing the brunt of that attack since this is the topic here.


I am sorry you can't begin to comprehend that. But you said "don't run away", here I am.

very good.
but to be honest to you, i dont like the western countries that much. not that they are evil or such... not at all, it's just not what i care for.

if i had to give you an example, i would talk about Jerusalem at the time when Muslims, Christians and Jews were living in peace there.
it was a good time where tolerance and freedom were important values.

and at that time, they werent caring about poor values like democracy or natinalism.

the muslims at that time were the majority and had a military strength, but they didnt abuse it.

why dont we follow their example?
let's stop caring about number and force... let's care about freedom and equality. dont do to the others what you wouldnt like to yourself. simple not?

live your life as you want...

but the problem is that there is people who dont want it that way... for money or power.

so we have to stick together... and we have to learn to say "why you care?"...

so the deal is simple: "i do what i want, i wont look to hurt you. and i advice you to do the same."
and if someone thinks that it's unfair... then he wants to enslave you.

so, changing our habits or books to please a foreigner who is Islamaphobic and a total ignorant... would be HUGE mistake.

let's stop undressing our women to please the tourists...

LeMask,

You're back at it again

Nobody is undressing our women to please tourists, they choose to dress they way feel like. Why would you think that ?

There's no governement directive that says "ok, everyone, strip down !"

Women one day would wear a jellaba, the next a skirt, one day wear lipstick, the next apply e'ssouak, it's just Morocco being Morocco.
I'm from Souss, women in the entire area where my parents are from are still dressing with addal just as they have been doing for centuries. They now go to school, work in the cities and when they're back, they relish the idea of wearing the traditional dressing, specially during festivities. You can check it out, I'm from the area of Tiznit.

Granted, there are other problems but they would be off topic here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2006 08:43 by chelhman.

hopefully you are right chelhman.the government doesnt try to undress our women.
but i'm talking about the society, i feel like the woman wearing Hijab is labeled as "retarded" or something of this kind. while the woman wearing like in the occident... they get labeled as "modern"...

it's unfair, and it will only create problems in the future.
i think that moderation is needed in both sides...

we do too much to look cool and modern, we are loosing our culture.

LeMask, trust me, being retarded has nothing to do with wearing hijab or wearing a mini skirt, you can see retarded people from all walks of life

As to the Hijab question, it is a matter of free speech true. As long as I am sure that women are not pressured by certain groups of people to wear hijab against their conviction and as long as I am sure that the girl who wants to wear the jean or the skirt has an absolute right to do that. I am all for freedom of expression.

Is that really the case in Morocco? Is Morocco Turkey or the US when it comes to allowing people to do what they want without external pressure from groups or the society, I have a strong doubt about that.

Talking about culture, Hijab like we know it has "appeared" in Morocco and was exported from the mashriq not long ago actually. It is a recent phenomenon that started after the muslim brotherhood in Egypt. It is not a moroccan tradition. Moroccan tradition is ltam, or the other way to cover the head which was not intended really to cover the "hair". So if we are talking about tradition, then again I am all for that. We just need to be truthful and define clearly what these traditions are and what is the "import".

Now to the Modern/Western VS Hijab debate. I believe it has nothing to do with being modern or backwards. The vast majority of moroccans will always lean to the modern side of things and will always go that way because the country is and has always been open to external influences, otherwise we won't be muslim today, so in the same token, we are open to whatever come from the "near-north", and it is not because we are muslim that we will stop driving cars or flying planes. The hijab in this context will not change this drive towards modernism, it is however a clear political message that talks about "brothers" and "sisters" and "oumma" and categorization and vilification of the other and at the end leads to wanting to impose its own view to the society. That is the danger my friend. So unless I have in hands a constitution that GUARANTEES that a moroccan citizen is protected by laws from groups trying to impose their way of thinking and thus endangering his personal liberty, I do not favor the wear of Hijab but I cannot prohibit it because it is against free speech. In other words, I tell those people, do your thing but don't come knock at my door asking me to grow the beard. It's a pretty simple and fair message I guess.