Morocco # English board

salam alaykum


zaki7

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Now to LeMask and Sarah, same question since I didn't get an answer from you

of course i am for that ,i strongly believe no one has a right to "think" he/she is superior and the constitution has to guarantee that for all citizens and for ex; if i am in a position of responsabilty where i should protect someone like manager with employees and i HIRED a gay employee ( yes Allahuma hada mounkar YET i will do whatever it takes to protect him (same for the rest ) against discrimination or harassment i will treat him as any body else make sure he feels comfortable to get the best out of him in other HAND i will not agree (emphasize that AGREE) that he promotes his homosexuality in public ( u may not agree with me ) like creating a club for gay ,organizing gay pride , programs for gays in national tv etc.if not becoz of the religion it would be by respect of the moroccan cultural background .yes yes yes most of you will jump here and use history to proof that the homosexuality exits a long time in whole arab world yet that fact does not mean it is a part of our culture.

for mini skirt girl in an islamic bank ,what is wrong with that since (i am not sure 100 %) that female employee serves only female customers why as a customer would refuse to be helped by a mini skirt employee i am in the bank for the product/service regardless who is at other side of the desk/counter as long as she is qualified for this task.

don t think that is a CONDITIONAL freedom becoz if you look at the constitution around the world it has kinda of "it is allowed to....until .....then it is not allowed'

that was just an ex

Well then, we are all for a democratic constitution where personal values like religion or being gay or being whatever stays within the realm of just that, the personal life of each one of the citizens. the reason why I emphasize putting this as a supreme law of the country is to avoid having one group forcing the other to do or not to do.

I will agree about the gay issue, but this has to go both ways for all other issues. You should not accept in the same token that an islamist in the street stands there and verbally agress women who do not wear hijab (I've seen that in the middle of Maarif in Casablanca). This is very close to the anglosaxon separation of church and state.

For mini-skirt in an islamic bank, trust me, this would not go unoticeable and actually this would never happen in my opinion. And that is fine with me if that bank has a set of regulations on a "private level".

I found these videos that are very much into what we're discussing, yes it is American, no I am not a bush lover, yes there are still some problemes in the US regarding the application of these laws but it is in my opinion the only successful example of a true democracy. Europe in my view is on the opposite side of what's preached in this message and is definitely not the way to go:

[www.firstfreedomfirst.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2006 06:23 by zaki7.

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What are talking about ? That hasn't happened in years !
Do you read our papers on a daily basis ? They're free to say what they want as long as it isn't defamatory, like in any civilized country.

i dont want the right to say it, but to do it.
dont get lost.

dictatorship = shup the hell up.
democracy = keep talking, aint listening anyway...

and you talk about votes? how far a vote can change the system?
vote is asking someone to do something for you.
and i want to do it myself. i want to return to the basics.

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It's human greed, it won't go away anytime soon. It might diminish with better salaries for the public sector with Morocco but a scandinavian level is a pipedream in our countries.

get rid of the administrative folks and you will see how the corruption would disappear.

i'm talking about a place without politics, we dont need a ruling class. what we have to do is clear and obvious. the choices (military, immigration, security, laws...everything) are already made. we just have to follow them.

and yes, we will agree to disagree. you want a government, i dont...

and zaki7, we have laic democracies all over the world. and they arent so good.
even the USA are turning into an oppressive democracy... just give them some time. today they forbid war protests, today it will be something else and then something else...

you have to put one thing in your head, you are free, you need no one to take decisions for you, then you are independant, so you need no body else.
so why vote in a democratic system? to risk to let others rule you just because there is more of them?
no, not at all, gather the people who live like you. and make your own living.

of course, right now, someone owns you. you have a passport with a color and a name on it, you are forced to be like the others having the same passport. because they are owned by a ruling class taking money (part of your life), you are a modern slave...

yesterday they used force to enslave, today it's called law... or modernity or god knows what...

you are playing the game following their rules... you win if they want you to win...
and they are the winners for years... and to have a winner, they need loosers...

so that's why we have to unleash all these enslaved people... and wait for them to meet each others and find an organisation where everybody wins...

so i'm opposed to everything, communism, capitalism, democracy... nothing is good enough... everything is man made... none of these are respecting our freedom as human beings...

that why i want to follow a simple way... have you took the time to read the 10 commandments? the 5 pillars of Islam?

just dont do to the others what you would hate to yourself...

and here... you made it. the perfect system.
treat the others like you wish you were treated...

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LeMask
and you talk about votes? how far a vote can change the system?
vote is asking someone to do something for you.
and i want to do it myself. i want to return to the basics.

I don't understand what you mean by "doing it yourself".
"return to basics" ? What basics ?
Could your expand on that ?

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i'm talking about a place without politics, we dont need a ruling class. what we have to do is clear and obvious. the choices (military, immigration, security, laws...everything) are already made. we just have to follow them.

and yes, we will agree to disagree. you want a government, i dont...

With no government ? What kind of system doesn't require a governing body ?

What choices are already made ? You need to decide orientations, policies.
Again could you clarify ? What exactly do you mean ?

Quote

With no government ? What kind of system doesn't require a governing body ?
What choices are already made ? You need to decide orientations, policies.
Again could you clarify ? What exactly do you mean ?

okay, let's take an example. because i'm not an expert on politics to tell you exactly how to make it.

but let's take the military, rather than force people to pay taxes to have a defense organisation.
why dont you give the (natural) right to the people to have weapons to defend themselves?
and then you make training facilities (people pay for training) and then you let them make organisations (why should they need officers to tell them what to do?).

and then, good luck attacking a country where nearly every man is a soldier ready to fight for his country.

just an example...

and then i would go further, taxes... why should they pay so much taxes? and then complain about how this money is used.
sorry, this money is their life time, it have a huge value, they have to know where every penny is going.

so, you ask them first to pay a tax to help the poors (the only obligation in Islam). and then... all the rest... schools, military, administration and such... it's up to them to decide. all you can do is to give them tools to find a good organisation. give them ideas and such...

and they pay only if they want to.

why should i pay for a highway in the north of the country while i live in the south? and even worse, 10 years later, the state sells this highway to a foreign corporation (they did it with the energy sector in Morroco)... i'm sorry dude, but this highway belongs to me and the morrocan people. you dont have the right to sell it.

and more and more... let's make it clear dude, when i see all the BS we have in our lives today, i think that chaos is necessary before order.
if we can make it without total chaos, then it's wonderful. but for that, we need the cooperation of the ruling class.

i want to work the things out using my way to do things. the way i trust.
wisch way is better... i dont care. what is important to me, is the way i trust.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Hi LeMask,

Let's take your vision of a governing structure one chapter at a time.

The military defense as you described is a replica of Afghanistan, it's a tribal system, everybody has a gun or a rifle and we pray that they don't start using them against each other.
But in that system, there is no national defense because we'll never be able to afford fighter jets or SAMs missiles or STS missiles...etc.
We have to rely on allegiance from tribal leaders.
So we're pretty much back to the middle ages, except they would have AK47s instead of swords or knifes.


The tax system you want would preclude any sort of national project which would benefit the community, it erases the notion of national solidarity, no big housing projects, no dams to provide electricity to the population, no national health system and of course as we stated earlier, no national defense.

Let's take an example to follow your logic of the highway, if Casablanca, the richest city in the country decides to cut off national contribution and withhold their taxes, then nothing gets done anymore in the country. You'll have roads up to El Jadida for instance, then dusty tracks up to Benguerir and maybe a normal road when you get close to Marrakech because this city would have decided it was in its interest to invest in roads around their domain.
It is insane.


Now, here's something more constructive : it has been argued in many countries that local governance is more efficient than a national centralized management.
The money trickles down to local councils which then decide how and where to affect that money.
But you still need a national body to decide on big initiatives like health, education, defense.

You do have a point when you talk of the energy sector, the grid has been paid by taxes levied on the moroccan citizenry and its businesses, but what we need is more competent people, not to discard national solidarity.

You don't seem to have any notion whatsoever on how to run a country, maybe you should start by running a small company, you'll understand some things.

I'm glad that you are not in charge, and I'm starting to understand where you get your ideas from.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2006 06:43 by chelhman.

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So we're pretty much back to the middle ages, except they would have AK47s instead of swords or knifes.

and why not? do you think that an oppressive government or a proffessional army attacking other countries is better?
and by the way, look at the military of Morroco. who can they defeat? ... no one, Algeria is too powerful, USA is way too powerful, Spain can rape them in one week and bla bla...
so? who they can defeat? it's very simple, you and me... the people. the unarmed civilians.

they can do a thing against a real enemy, but against an honest citizen... oh yeah, they can.

i know, it may seem primitive described that way, but it's only a pessimist view. they can stick together through alliances. they can fight together. and about Sams and Aircraft, it's up to the level of organisation. but this organisation shouldnt turn into an oppressive system...

like a system asking for a loan (money we dont have) of the country to buy weapons...
and plz, dont underestimate the intelligence of the people.
they can find a way.

Quote

Let's take an example to follow your logic of the highway, if Casablanca, the richest city in the country decides to cut off national contribution and withhold their taxes, then nothing gets done anymore in the country. You'll have roads up to El Jadida for instance, then dusty tracks up to Benguerir and maybe a normal road when you get close to Marrakech because this city would have decided it was in its interest to invest in roads around their domain.
It is insane.

not, what you are saying is insane. here we are talking abour organisation... you get stuck on details. people will need roads... so they will make some roads. and Casablanca would turn into a little city.

people at the neighborhood/city level will gather their efforts to build roads, schools and such...

i think about starting over... from the beginning. building on new foundations. and this foundation is simple, dont force people. even when it's for their own good. you DONT have this right.

do you understand? the people will have to find a way to make it. and they will, through negotiation between themselves, from equals to equals.

and dont get yourself lost in the process, we have A LOT of useless things.
what is important is:
water&food in general
housing
education
health care
security
freedom & independance

the rest isnt very important... right now we dont have many of these. so why should i care about roads when the majority dont have a vehicule?
why should i care about having sam launchers and aircrafts while 40% of the population cant read?

first things first...

it's like if i told you "stop buying clothes from China" and then you say "eh, but 99% of our clothes come from China. we will be naked! "... do you think we are going to be naked? no, because we cant accept this. we will just have to make our own clothes... and if we work hard, if we dont screw it up... we will make a textile industry after some time.

why knows? where is your pride? where is the selfconfidence?

LeMask,

It's pointless to argue details of governing with you, we'll get in touch with you in case of a nuclear fallout when nothing is left, your system might be useful.
In the meantime, enjoy your stay with the koffar, they do provide a confy environnement, don't they ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2006 02:10 by chelhman.

ummm yeah, it have some advantages... not so bad in France to be honest. it could be better of course. but the globalization have no mercy. they try to follow without screwing up what they already have but it's fine.

i aim higher than that.

another example (for the road lol), property... we all accused the Muslim way of killing the real estate market.
like if we came tommorow and said "okay, you dont have the right to sell an appartment. you can keep it or sell it only. no credit, nothing." the real estate will crash, and people will be commiting suicide and such... not.

if i came and added a law to forbid the rental.
the prices would drop... they wont lose anything, the houses, appartments and building wont be destroyed, they would still here...
but the prices would drop following the rules of the market. high demand = huge prices, low demand = low prices...
the people who are owning real estate will have to sell them. because they cant live in 10 houses at the same time.
so? ... so the access to property will rise.

we will have less people worrying about the money of the rent at the end of the month.
the people who were living thanks to rent money and interests will have to get a job... they wont die. they will be forced to work like the others.
and if they are poor after that... it's because they have to be poor. because they useless and cant find a job. like should be useless people (poor).

and then the people will start making credits to build, make a bussiness and such...
the people wont be trying to save money to stock in a bank to gain interests... they will be spending it = flourishing economy thanks to high spending.

the youth in the schools will see that the economy is moving, so they will work hard to get an education to have an intersting job... the moral will rise, the education will follow, the motivation in work will rise aswell... the discipline in work will rise.

and bla bla bla...
but right now, we are stuck in a mindset... ohhh, impossible... i'm weak, poor and stupid... i cant do that. i cant be free. i'm a slave now. but being a slave isnt so bad.it's cool. i get 100$ at the end of the month, and free coffee with chocolate at 12 everyday mmmmmm, me love chocolate. and if i feel depressed... i have free booze in the bar. mmmmmm, i forget my problems when i'm drunk... and i'm not really a slave... i have democracy. i can choose, i can vote left or right if i want to. no one would stop me. okay, they are all the same... but come on, i can choose the name of president. they would do exactly the same thing. but i can choose his NAME for god sake, it's a lot for a slave like me.

and i have hopes... tommorow i will be able to even choose following the skin color... blond, black, purple, it's up to me to decide...

good luck buddy...

LeMask,

I would highly recommend you to run the economy of our worst enemy, you should be extremely efficient.

chelhman look at the economy dude...

the poor is getting poorer, the rich richer... and you say that the economy is working?
sorry man. it's working, to make money... but this money doesnt have any meaning.

for me, money is human work. and this means that only human work can make money...

so when you allow money to make money... you are enslaving someone to the people owning the money.

LeMask, I didn't say the economy is working, read it again. I'm saying what you're proposing is not a viable solution.
You remind me of the communists, their heart was in the right place but humans are competitive by nature, our economies reflect that.
That's why capitalism is embraced, because it serves human nature where communism or the medieval model you're proposing fights it. It'll never work.
But a social-democrat model might, with this king at the helm of course. We still have a long way to go but I believe we're on the right track in Morocco.

I'd be curious to see you live your dream to the fullest, you're model is being applied right now in Waziristan, parts of Afghanistan, why don't you spend a few months among them and open a blog, you'll tell us how wonderful life is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2006 02:18 by chelhman.

chelhman wakis what? who is that guy? lol

nah, i'm not interested in doing that in Afghanistan (part of Afghanistan) alone... but a big part of the world. because alone it wont do any good. we need others to survive, it's sad. but it's sometimes the case.

i can do it right now, go to Nepal and sit on a mountain and say "hahaha, got you guys, i need no one here." ... but it would be dumb and useless...

but okay, you are right, it's not viable right now, we have to make some room for it first.
what about a change in the constitution? something that could give us the right to choose something else.

like if we could make a second kind of justice courts... like one using a laic system and other using a religious system.
let's take a place like Palestine/Isreal, we have many kind of people.

Muslims
laics
jews
christians

so we make a law for every kind. you are muslim? you get judged following muslim laws. you are jew? you get judged by jew laws... you are laic, you get judged following laic laws.

and then you grant autonomy to every group. every group is independant and doesnt have to take power to be independant. everybody is free.

but for that, you have to push some people to abandon their previleges. in this situation it would be the Israelis with their powerful army capable of doing anything without caring about consequences.

and if you took the time to look carefully, you would see that there is a ruling class + a rich class in most countries. and these are the ones screwing the things up.
the citizens are used to their interests, they dont care. their interests are the main priority and nothing else matters.

anyway... we have a lot of things that have to change.

i hope i dont hijack this thread :

[healthandenergy.com]


KAS = kingdom of arabie saoudite

This is a country where women aren't allowed to drive a car. They're not allowed to be in the company of any man other than a close relative, they're required to adhere to a dress code that would make a Maryknoll Nun look like Malibu Barbie. They beheaded 121 people last year for robbery, rape, and drug trafficking, they've no free press, no elected government, no political parties, and the royal family allows the religious police to travel in groups of six, carrying nightsticks and they freely and publicly beat women. But "Brutus is an honorable man". Seventeen schoolgirls were forced to burn alive because they weren't wearing the proper clothing. Am I outraged?

Obs2006 outraged? i dont know...
but i dont know how you are hijacking the thread... but i think that you are somehow doing that.
where is the link plz?

i never said that i was thinking about a system similar to this...

you give a bad example here, in fact, if they were following the muslim principles there would be no royal family.

and by the way, it's not half as bad as you describe it.
rapists deserve death.
drug trafficking? i dont know on this issue, but why not?
free press? i dont know about that.
and i dont think that they are killing the robbers, even if i personnaly dont mind the total repression of crime.

afterall, raping, killing and stealing isnt a right... i wish we could put to death all the criminals. but hopefully for them, it's not up to me to decide.
and stop showing mercy for criminals, it's really not the time. you have to look at the victims first.
walking on our heads?

and you said it yourself, no elections... where is the freedom and the equality? hello man... be logic for god sake.

links :

[www.gulf-times.com]


or


[www.rsf.org]


or

[www.yabiladi.com]



[web.amnesty.org]

Can you guys take a look at these infos :


1-"A Rotherham woman has complained after a Muslim pharmacist refused to give her the morning after pill because it was against his religious beliefs."



[news.bbc.co.uk]




2- [static.sky.com]

24 year old Aishah Azmi has been suspended from her teaching post after refusing to remove her veil when teaching primary schoolchildren in Kirklees. Children in her classes had complained they could not hear her properly and couldn't see her mouth when she spoke and many of the children have English as their second language.

The Headteacher said she could keep her veil on in the staff room and corridors but was asked to remove it in the classroom. She refused and was suspended and is now taking her employers to a tribunal.

Muslim leaders have said she does not need to wear the veil in front of young children and the school's decision has been supported. Children need to see and hear their teacher and her stubborn behaviour is hindering the children's education.

[news.sky.com]


3- Paid Religious Holidays in England

Christians: 3 days. Christmas, Good Friday and Easter.

Pagans: Choose 2 out of 8 pagan festivals.

MUSLIMS: 26 days off.

Quote

The Home Office papers reveal that Pagans can choose a day off work on two dates from eight of their festivals each year.

These include the Spring Equinox on March 20, the Midsummer Solstice on June 21 and Hallowe'en - the Samhain, or Summer's End, as it was known in Celtic times - on October 31. Christian prisoners are allowed three days off - on Good Friday, Easter Day and Christmas Day.

Muslims are entitled to the most time off - 26 days to pray, including the fast of Ramadan. Buddhists get three days, Hindus ten and Jews seven.

[www.dailymail.co.uk]



4 - A retired priest committed suicide by setting himself on fire in a German monastery in protest at the spread of Islam and the Protestant Church’s inability to contain it.
Relations with Muslims have been a matter of intense debate in Germany in recent months, stoked by the cancellation of a Mozart opera in Berlin amid fears that it could provoke Muslim violence, and a speech by the Pope in September in which he quoted from a medieval text linking the spread of the Islamic faith to violence.

The Berlin Deutsche Oper has said that it will stage the opera, which has a scene showing the severed heads of the Prophet Muhammad, Jesus and Buddha.

[www.timesonline.co.uk]


5- Non-Muslims 'must wear hijab'
NON-Muslim English girls will be ordered to wear headscarves at a new Islamic school.

Madani High School in Leicester will take ten per cent of its pupils from other faiths — but insists all must cover their heads.


[www.thesun.co.uk]


I collected all these infos in the last 6 or 8 days from different blogs/forums and i ve read carefuly what do people ( europeen members) think about this , i read their answers in those forums : i found out that they are angry , they feel they are invaded by muslims , they dont wanna put up with this anymore .


I was only an observator reading their remarks , all i can say : " be careful of what you wish "



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2006 07:55 by Obs2006.

we cant live together with racism and Islamophobia...

the pharmacist have the right to refuse to sell the morning after-pill. or you think that it's better to force a pharmacist to sell products to kill babies?

let's say that in 20years, a law will be voted that says that you can kill your baby up to 6months (after birth). would you sell the products to do that?
this is what you have to keep in your head. society is in movement. it will change with time, and not always toward better things. while the muslim life style is supposed to grow in another way...

2- it's up to the teacher to decide, but what if the children were just playing dumb? i did it in the past. just to piss off the teachers...

3- wow? the muslims have more days off the work... big deal, wanna fight about it?
dont pay them... jeez, this is really dumb.

4- suicide is a pathology. people who commit suicide are crazy people. do you understand?
and since when christians commit suicide?

5- you said it, Islamic schools... in nudist beachs you take you clothes off. in Islamic schools you wear the Hijab.

anyway, it's so dumb and irrelevant, why should i care about what they think about Islam? seriously?
let's say that they hate it, so? ... why should i give a damn?

my plan is very simple, everyone with his people. and if they love each others, they must accept conditions.

Hi Obs2006,

The pharmacy case reminded me of a similar story a few years ago in the US and another one in France.
In the US, it was one of those christian fundamentalist running a local pharmacy who refused to sell the pill and the day-after pill. He was against contraception and of course against abortion.
The stupidity being in the belief that one would have conceived a foetus within hours. Go figure...


In France, it was again a christian fundamentalist, he refused to sell the pill, same thing : he was against contraception.

The point is, religion is getting out of control, it is more and more crossing the red line, be it islam, christianity or judaïsm. In Israel, I could pick half a dozen similar stories with jewish fundamentalists.
When one starts being agressive and proselyte, the others tend to follow the trend for fear of being overrun.
In all cases, religion is taken in its most basic form and twisted, it's not about enlightenment, it becomes a form of protest, it denaturates the original message.

Growing up, this is not how I imagined the 21st century. Somehow I thought we would have made some progress, I feel we're going backwards and making the same mistakes.

P.S : LeMask, the suffix "phobia" means "fear" in greek, so "Islamophobia" is about fear not hatred, they're afraid of us, they don't hate us. Reading you and others sometimes, I can understand their feelings...
Remember what I keep telling you about hitting the books ? This is the kind of stuff you get from them, fascinating isn't it ?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2006 02:03 by chelhman.

Quote

P.S : LeMask, the suffix "phobia" means "fear" in greek, so "Islamophobia" is about fear not hatred, they're afraid of us, they don't hate us. Reading you and others sometimes, I can't understand their feelings...
Remember what I keep telling you about hitting the books ? This is the kind of stuff you get from them, fascinating isn't it ?smiling smiley

glad we have smart people like, i will look less stupid tommorow. thanks for the info (i knew it, but thanks anyway for sharing).

but if you push it further:
fear leads to aggressivity, hate...

and i would say that fear comes from lack of information, ignorance, stupidity... people fear you because they dont understand you. when you know what you will happen to you, you dont fear it.

a fanatic doesnt fear death because he is sure of what is waiting for him.
and bla bla bla...

so yes, fear isnt hatred, but fear leads to hatred. so we fight fear education, and from knowledge and understanding we get the opposite of hatred and fear... love and tolerance.

so chelhman, you would sell weapons to Hitler? ... i wouldnt.
it's true.selling weapons isnt killing...

but if you care about Islam, our religion.
we dont have the right to drink alcohol. but we are also asked to not cooperate in anything related to alcohol. it means, not drink it, not selling it and more and more...

so if i make a shop to sell food, and that i refuse to sell alcohol with the other products... i'm a muslim fundamentalist? is that it?

so what is wrong with you guys? ... what is this lack of respect? who the hell you think you are to tell what is wrong or not?
you are now attacking people for giving value to life?

who are you to decide what is considered life or not?

stop playing the role of god. you dont have this right.

LeMask,

Still banging your head on your padded room, I see.
Keep thinking in binary terms if that conforts you. To each his own.

give some arguments for a change...

i learn nothing from you, you just bash people and call them fanatics without caring about them...

i dont understand people like you...

LeMask, you're right, I'm known in this forum for never articulating my thoughts.

ah? so let me guess... you are also known for admitting your mistakes without repairing them...

i'm still waiting for your arguments... unless your thought arent founded... then you will have to take them back.

and you have to keep in mind the difference between the holy and the "profane"... what is holy cant be changed. it can be adapted, but not changed... and the profane is going to change with time, it doesnt have a big value because it may be wrong.

LeMask, you're so deep into your delusion that you don't even see the irony in what you're saying. When have you ever brought anything original to this debate except perroting the usual preaching ?

Hte pharmacist provides a service to the customer, this service is regulated and the state or the country where he lives tells him what he can or cannot sell. Having personal religious beliefs should not come into equation when providing a regulated service. The law makes the call as to whether the after morning should be sold or not. The paharmacist follows the law. This guy should have his license suspended for that. He is not selling vegetables, he is selling medicines for people who need them, sorry it's just not his call, otherwise he would be called a Doctor.

Quote
LeMask
we cant live together with racism and Islamophobia...

the pharmacist have the right to refuse to sell the morning after-pill. or you think that it's better to force a pharmacist to sell products to kill babies?

let's say that in 20years, a law will be voted that says that you can kill your baby up to 6months (after birth). would you sell the products to do that?
this is what you have to keep in your head. society is in movement. it will change with time, and not always toward better things. while the muslim life style is supposed to grow in another way...

2- it's up to the teacher to decide, but what if the children were just playing dumb? i did it in the past. just to piss off the teachers...

3- wow? the muslims have more days off the work... big deal, wanna fight about it?
dont pay them... jeez, this is really dumb.

4- suicide is a pathology. people who commit suicide are crazy people. do you understand?
and since when christians commit suicide?

5- you said it, Islamic schools... in nudist beachs you take you clothes off. in Islamic schools you wear the Hijab.

anyway, it's so dumb and irrelevant, why should i care about what they think about Islam? seriously?
let's say that they hate it, so? ... why should i give a damn?

my plan is very simple, everyone with his people. and if they love each others, they must accept conditions.

chelhman, i'm not preaching, i'm telling what a lot of people think. if you believed in democracy, you would agree with me just because the majority would follow what i say.

zaki7? so now it's the country who tells the people what to think? BS... it's up to him to decide. all she have to do is to get to another pharmacy... she wont die.
if he was a doctor who refused to take care of non-muslim people i could understand...

but you cant use this logic.

so a muslim doctor would be forced to do abortion? if you are christian and that you think that abortion is murder and that a client knocks on your door and asks you to perform the abortion... you are forced to do it? even if you think that you are killing an innocent life and that you will go to hell if you do?

you have to be really twisted to think that way... nah... what he did was in his right...

no, it's his pharmacy, and it's up to him to decide what to sell or not... it's called freedom. and whatever the state, it's not up to them to take such decisions to them and to force people to do such things... NO. definetely, it's his right.

Hi LeMask,

Quote

chelhman, i'm not preaching, i'm telling what a lot of people think. if you believed in democracy, you would agree with me just because the majority would follow what i say.

So now you're Zogby International, you're making polls ?
In a democracy, majority does not mean the majority of the people you hang out with, if you check outside your usual circles, you would find that the majority of people, what is called "the silent majority", doesn't care much for your "wonderful, progressive" ideas


As for the rest of your post, I know it was meant for Zaki7 but I'll take a wack at it anyway, as it is, as usual, deliciously out there :

LeMask, there are things called laws that citizens are supposed to follow. For instance, when you open a business in a particular field such as pharmacy, you sign a charter that gives you a set of rules. For instance, in France, by law, you cannot refuse to sell products to someone if he has legal tender (money). As a pharmacist, the rules are even more strict, as he deals in a sensitive field, i.e drugs.
What you're describing is a society that doesn't exist, except in the Truman Show running in your head.

Dear Chelhman

I have been following this long discussion with LeMask. I do not khnow the field you are working in but I can tell you: Congratulations for the patience, kindness and the respect you are demonstrating in this discussion.
Is ther a chance to narrow this large gap ?