Morocco Omits Verse from Curricula

Morocco # English board

26 October 2006 14:05

very interesting zaki7... i can agree with you on many points.
but i'm not as optimistic as you. two things, you are naive, or i'm paranoiac...

but anyway, i see that the world is divided between two groups (at least two), the occidental and the oriental... or the judeo-christian world and the Arabo-muslim world (sorry for the spelling)...

and if you dont see Morroco as a part of one of these two groups, then i can assure you that there is plenty of countries in both sides who think that way (USA, Europe and more)...

the occident is happy to see women wearing skirts and full(of people) bars in our streets... they LOVE THAT.
but when they see a woman wearing Hijab... they wont give a damn if it's Morrocan or Arabic... or from 1200 or modern from 2006... they dont understand that. all they will care for, is that it's NOT their life-style...

and you would see that the big/average compagnies in Morroco would NEVER hire a woman with Hijab to meet foreign clients...
to work with them, you MUST be able to invite the clients in a disco, buy them a bottle (alcohol of course) and show them how the country is turning occidental style so they could invest in safety there...

believe or not, i seriously think that we are in a fight of domination... there is people trying to "convert us"...
there is an evilification of the west in the arab countries, and an evilification of Islam in the occident...
and following what i see. there is a part of the population who buyed their "logic"...

so mister chelhman is critisizing our religion (or our interpretation of the religion) while he is wearing our colors... and in the occident we have muslim or converted muslims critisizing their values or whatever how i should call that.

dont you see the oppression?
some crazy dude and his friends in Al-Quaeda drops himself on a building in New-York... call it Jihad, and an US dude comes to Morroco to say "stop using the word of Jihad"... and we have some dudes who accept that and find it logic?

dont you see? they automatically put us in the enemy side... they arent our friends... we are ALONE.

i'm not like them, i dont judge a group of people on the actions of some individuals...

we have a lot of work to do. and i need allies to survive. no one survives alone.
and i think that if we have to choose some allies... it will be the other arab countries.
because they see themselves as our natural allies.

it's sad chelhman... you prefer the enemy of yesterday (France, Spain and more) to the brothers of yesterday?

zaki7

26 October 2006 15:20

I don't think I am naive my friend. And I also don't believe the world today is divided in 2 groups. Globalization made its way through all societies and Morocco is no exception. And if we were to classify in groups and little boxes every country, Morocco will certainly not be "oriental" not would would be occidental for that matter. In my opinion, it is a big melting pot of races and ethnic groups that decided to from a country several hundred years ago. this country was very traditionalist but stayed open to all the influences during all this time and adapted himself remarkably.

The "they" VS "us" argument about the occident is in my opinion a very reduced way to talk about this topic. Who are you talking about exactly when you say they love to see our girls in mini skirts? This is exactly what I was talking about. You are part of this minority of people who can't stand that other moroccans can have a different way of life than yours.

The reason why a company would not hire a woman wearing hijab is very simple. The hijab holds a message, not a religious one only but a political message. That message portrays exactly what you said : "they" VS "us". Why in the hell would I want as a company to put in the forefront of my sales force a person who before talking to somebody is sending him a message that he is on the wrong path and the lady in hijab is on the right one?

We are not in a fight of any kind. If there was a fight in the past for any cultural dominance, we lost it a while ago when we stopped being open to other cultures. You know your ancestors have reached the pic of their civilization by reading greek manuscripts, by challenging things, by mixing up with jews and christians. When fondamentalism and when this feeling of "exclusiveness" (they VS us) appeared), we lost that cultural battle. By that time, wuropeans applied our way of doing things, and that is learning arabic to benefit from science advances and philosophical achievements. They understood that if a civilization has reached a development point greater than ours, there is no point to ignore that and there is no point to retrieve and be in denial. What you call "occident" today was called andalusia few centuries ago. If we don't embrace the western achievements and if we don't use them in a manner that serves our interest, we are doomed to a Taliban style society.

the spirit offf your message is unfortunately the challenge Morocco is facing and that is a group of people that does not accept the other point of view. If Chelhman has a different opinion then "he is a traitor" wearing our colors but against "us". If I am not following your school of though, then I am "naive". What's next? Call us non muslims and strip us from our Moroccan citizenship. No my friend, as I was saying before, everyone should have the right to do what he thinks is good for himself. The moment this principle is not applied ans you start imposing your view on others, religion becomes a political tool and tis needs to be avoided by all means.

I am not naive, Chelhman is not crazy, the "crazy dudes" that dropped themselves on NYC also committed an attack on Morocco. You are really trying too hard to make the argument Western world against Muslim world while the argument is Religious fanatics against Moderate muslims. The fight is within my friend, not with the occident , not with the martians. When muslims start implementing democraties and not theocraties, when the rule of law prevails (just like in the western world...), when we will adopt those western values and leave some backward thinking in the grave, then we will develop, until then...

AS to the "arab brothers", I hope you're jking right? smiling smiley

sarah70

26 October 2006 18:26

salam alaykum

Zaki7

first of all i would like you to be patient with me .

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Why in the hell would I want as a company to put in the forefront of my sales force a person who before talking to somebody is sending him a message that he is on the wrong path and the lady in hijab is on the right one?

Quote
I was saying before, everyone should have the right to do what he thinks is good for himself. The moment this principle is not applied ans you start imposing your view on others, religion becomes a political tool and tis needs to be avoided by all means

i just couldn't get it how in the other hand to respect my freedom to wear hijab and the other hand you will not hire me bcoz of your interpretation of reason why i am wearing hijab ,

i have been there so i really know what it means being discarded from promotion and/or job bcoz i wear hijab ,do u have any idea how painful it is what awful feeling ,when they promote someone else less qualified.unfortunately what i did just slam the door and packed my stuff and leave Morocco to an occidental country where (always wearing hijab) i was hired by an international company for similar position i was hoping to get promoted in Morocco .i have direct contact with customers and each year my job review is great .

same for me i will not disciminate any one bcoz he is gay or his backgound.

but not anyone get discrimanated will pack his stuff and leave morocco and for how long opressed people will keep their mouth shutted up.

do u think we need here to learn something from occident AS u said before?

we need to have the guts to protect citizens rights against any discriminations regadless their backgournd and what they wear we are not here to judge them.

chelhman

26 October 2006 19:03

LeMask, I see you've been busy today smiling smiley

Quote

so mister chelhman is critisizing our religion (or our interpretation of the religion) while he is wearing our colors... and in the occident we have muslim or converted muslims critisizing their values or whatever how i should call that.

Zaki7 summed up my thoughts pretty well.
So your idea of a discussion is, when something is beyond your understanding than it must be hostile ? "Us and them" ?

Wearing your colors ? If that is your logic, then let me give you a taste of your own medecine : YOU're wearing our colors and misrepresenting muslims to those who read you.
They would think that we're a bunch of bigots unable to reason.
Sounds about right ?

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it's sad chelhman... you prefer the enemy of yesterday (France, Spain and more) to the brothers of yesterday?

No, Chelhman is like the overwhelming majority of Moroccans, we have always taken the best of whatever culture we've encountered and made it our own, but you epitomize everything we've always rejected : bigotry and the unability to adapt.
I'm reasoning, something you have proven to be unable to do. Here's for you, you might learn something :

[www.lavieeco.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2006 07:28 by chelhman.

zaki7

26 October 2006 20:41

Sarah, I am not talking about promoting an already hired lady with the Hijab, if the company has agreed to hire you and does not reward your hard work, then the fault lies within the company. Now on the hiring process, the company has its right, exactly as you have yours to wear whatever you want to say this person has a clothing standard that does not fit what our clients expect and might take offense in that.

See if a company is selling condoms, you don't want to be their sales agent if you wear Hijab, the same way if the company is an Islamic Bank, they wouldn't hire a mini skirt lady that will go sell their products to religious people. We need to be clear here, we can't have it both ways, either everybody is free or nobody is. Including companies... Especially the private ones.

Other companies will not hire ladies with skirts if they deal with a clientele that is not progressive or might not welcome such a person.

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sarah70
salam alaykum

Zaki7

first of all i would like you to be patient with me .

Quote
Why in the hell would I want as a company to put in the forefront of my sales force a person who before talking to somebody is sending him a message that he is on the wrong path and the lady in hijab is on the right one?

Quote
I was saying before, everyone should have the right to do what he thinks is good for himself. The moment this principle is not applied ans you start imposing your view on others, religion becomes a political tool and tis needs to be avoided by all means

i just couldn't get it how in the other hand to respect my freedom to wear hijab and the other hand you will not hire me bcoz of your interpretation of reason why i am wearing hijab ,

i have been there so i really know what it means being discarded from promotion and/or job bcoz i wear hijab ,do u have any idea how painful it is what awful feeling ,when they promote someone else less qualified.unfortunately what i did just slam the door and packed my stuff and leave Morocco to an occidental country where (always wearing hijab) i was hired by an international company for similar position i was hoping to get promoted in Morocco .i have direct contact with customers and each year my job review is great .

same for me i will not disciminate any one bcoz he is gay or his backgound.

but not anyone get discrimanated will pack his stuff and leave morocco and for how long opressed people will keep their mouth shutted up.

do u think we need here to learn something from occident AS u said before?

we need to have the guts to protect citizens rights against any discriminations regadless their backgournd and what they wear we are not here to judge them.

Almot

26 October 2006 22:23

Hi Sarah,

I do agree with what you said Sarah about been discriminated against because of your Hijab and I can feel the pain this may have caused you. That is very bad and very hurtful, believe me I know discrimination when I see one, and shame that you had to live Morocco for that reason. Hijab should be a source of respect and a sign of decency and I’m very sad, indeed, to hear your story.
You do, I believe, see zaki’s point that you’re not going to be able to work as an employee for a company that sales alcohol or condoms,? for example, Just like a female with a mini skirt won’t be able to work for an Islamic bank. I know we’re using kind of the extreme examples here, but I really and truly believe that the fault here rests on the hands of these psychopaths, and as you can see, I have no room for them in my system, who uses our Quraan to enslave us. These are the ones who were so mad and so outrageous when the Moudawana passed in Morocco and became law. Yet, this law doesn’t do more than to give the women who were crushed and abused the right to say to their aggressor husbands “sayonara suckers,” these nuts cannot accept that and want women to stay right where they want them, to have 4 at a time, to divorse them with one short phrase and to give them half of inheritance as they do to men, I don’t care what any of the ulama says about inheritance, I think inheritance should be equal between boys and girls alike. And those who talk all the time about ijtihad in islam, why haven’t they done any ijtihad in this area for 1400 years? One may ask!!!
I don’t see in zaki’s examples any attack on your kind, I can’t see any men on this forum not respecting the women who choose to wear hijab, but you have to understand that it caries its weight also. I worked with two women who refused to shake hands not only foreigners, but with Moroccans, too. Yes, it’s their right, one might suggest, but isn’t it the right of the employer to fire someone who just made him loose millions of dollars? You see my point.
I believe religion should be between people and their god and should not be used to dehumanize one group nor favor another. Civilizations are measured by their achievements in fields of sciences, mathematics and economies, all fields Muslims once introduced to the west, show me any Muslim country since Al Andalus that has achieved anything in any field? And by the way, I do not consider the buildings, roads, banks and palaces built by the money from oil as achievements. Where are our ibn Battotas, our Khawarizmis, our ibn Sinaas and our Farabis of today? Are we to follow these nuts who want us to believe that these killers on the world news today are our new leaders? Are we to listen to these new Moroccan Sheikhs who want to remove the modawana that is the equivalent of declaration of independence for women in Morocco? We have to start reading more then just one book like chelhman said previously. Our book, the holy Quraan should always remain our guiding light, but we should stand up and look a bit behind the trees, may be, and just may be there are some green pastures out there.
And Sarah, on a personal note, I think you should expose the company that discriminated against you, you shouldn’t let them get away with it, you may end up helping next Hijab wearing women applying for job with them.
Take care,

Almot

LeMask

26 October 2006 23:17

chelhman, i really dont think you are honest...
i personnaly dont care about the pope. he can say whatever he wants, i'm not taking any word from anyone part of a clergy. god representants? eh... come on.

it looks like you dont understand me. so, let's explain it again.
in the western world, there is people who believe that there is indeed a "fight" between our countries (muslim) and theirs... they BELIEVE THAT.

take an example, the riots in Paris... the English medias presented these as a "muslim revolt in France"...
now, if it's true or not, i really dont care... because there is enough people believing that to make it "like true".

and about the lost cultural war... i really dont follow you. it's never lost.

have you forgot how these occidental empires raped our countries? you call that a good culture we have to copy? i'm sorry, but i fail to see any good thing in them we dont already have.

we have a huge and rich legacy, all we have to do is to follow it.
we are talking here about learning from outsiders while we dont even use what we have.

it's like if you had tools in your house and that you were thinking about buying new ones... first, use what you have.

and by the way, it's by following the christian culture that we lost Andalousia... while drinking wine and enjoying women, they forgot to defend their brothers... and slowly they were kicked out to the sea like rats...

you are so blind... you said it yourself, we were part of a great civilization. isnt it the proof that our "culture" isnt bad?
what is this lack of confidence? where is your strength?

always asking ourselves like slaves what the occident can do for us... what can you do for yourself?

but anyway, you think that we should learn from the Occident. and i say that the occident did criminal things in our countries (look at Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria, Libya...)... i dont trust these guys.

i wont turn into the ex-communist world, these communists arent respecting basic property freedom, rights granted by our religion.

what is left? the arab-muslim countries...

and by the way, i believe in the Umma. Algeria's and Tunisia's populations are just the Morrocan population... it would be great if we could unite and make one country smiling smiley

same with Iran and Iraq... and more and more other countries... it could be cool.

i have a dream my friend. a muslim money... same kind of money all over the muslim world. the kind of money you can earn only muslim style (no interests and such, hard work only)... and more and more...

we could rock the world that way...

sarah70

27 October 2006 00:14

salam alaykum

Zaki7

if you read what i just wrote .

Quote
i really know what it means being discarded from promotion and/or job bcoz i wear hijab

AND/OR which means some company refused already to hire me before i get hired (thanks God zaki7 u were not there otherwise you would interfere as u mentioned) by the one that discarded me the promotion , their activities has nothing to do haram it is pure technical .

i am sure if the company i am working is one of your client and you want to get the deal and you hear that you have to convince a hijabi lady , you will not dare to shack my hand since i am representing your client and even u did and i refuse you will just smile and sit down trying to sell your product/service.

Occident is more acquainted with islamic culture since they have important client in mideast so they don t dare brick those culture EVEN in their home country (occident ) and the law here protects me again discrimination and harassment i do just my job no one can even ask me or any lady working with me to escort client to get the deal , the problem i have is with some of my compatriots.

I am sure 100 % you will see inshallah more hajabi ladies in multinational companies in Morocco in high positions as i am sure u will be just OK to deal with them .

sarah70

27 October 2006 03:16

salam alaykum

Almot

Quote
I don’t see in zaki’s examples any attack on your kind, I can’t see any men on this forum not respecting the women who choose to wear hijab.

no respect for me when some people think if a women is wearing hijab because someone forced her or she was influenced by something or someone, when they underestimate her intelligence and ignoring the fact she can decide for herself and we need just to respect her decision.

i am sure they are indifferent for hijab untill the point when one day thier faith interferes like professional then you will see if he will respect a woman who wears hijab or not, what we
miss here is the culture of tolerence and freedom (some people find it just weird when i talk about freedom i don t know why.

thank you again Almot for your comment.

zaki7

27 October 2006 06:24

Sarah70, I feel you, just to make thngs clear. I am on your side. Here is how I see things from my own perspective, I might "shock" LeMask but it's ok, I'll take the chance smiling smiley

The best way to protect your liberties is to insure that others that have different principles than you have their liberties as well. There is something very powerful about the US which I believe is the most interesting principle their society has adopted. That principle is guaranteed by a constitution that states basically that Everyone is free to practive or not practice his religion, that his beliefs, his clothing style and his holidays are part of his freedom of choice and that he can challenge anybodyand win based on the supreme laws of the country, wheter an issue arises in the society, at school, at the workplace or in the street. What's more powerful is that you will find in that country men who will fight for your right to this very free speech even if they hold beliefs that are totally in opposite to what you believe and that right is sacred and indivisible, I wish in Morocco someday, every religious, non-religious, jew, analphabet, handicapped, poor, rich, etc.. will not be categorized as better than the other based on its personal beliefs and that his or her rights are protected by the highest level of the state. Unfortunately, what is happening today is that you have one side that is trying to impose its own vision on the entire society because of a lack in our constitution and laws to protect the country from zealous and extremists, it makes people react in the opposite extreme as well and you as a simple citizen who is trying to live her faith in a normal gets caught in this debate. The result is tht it will probably make you vilify others more and otehrs will vilify you as well and it is a shame. It's a chain reaction that can explode on the long term if not difused in the short term.

I wish one day I will be able to see Moroccans bonding on principles other than religious or non religious ones. the day a morocan will be able to see his fellow moroccan and empathize with him or identify to him as a moroccan will be a joyous day smiling smiley

Our society and family and school are the champions of standardization. That is a big mistake. IT IS OK TO BE DIFFERENT. You wear the hijab, that is fine, I know my wife will not wear one because of my personal conviction and probably hers too but I do not have the right to tell you what to do with yourself and if a company does not treat you as it should be, I will be on your side to denounce that and pressure or convince the boss of that company to hire you. But that stops here. I do not have the right to push somebody to hire a person he does not feel fit for his company's idea and goals. Hell as a man who does not wear hijab, I am being asked crazy questions during job interviews smiling smiley

Here is the compromise for the hiring process: Yes you have a right to protest, yes you have the right to pressure and contact ONG's to make your case, hire an attorney etc.. but that's about it, if the guy does not want you in his team and the law does not force him to hire people, it is his right. If you take off this right, then a miniskirt girl can knock on an islamic bank front door and sue that bank for discrimination if she doesn't get hired as well. This is the difficulty of this issue. IT is something we can deal with by setting up a general framework that guarantees the right of all "citizens" on a global society scale but we cannot go and legislate for a specific group of people to protect their rights only ande deny the same rights to others.

Basically, what I believe in is a system that is similar to the anglosaxon or the turkish model where everybody's rights are protected, not only women wearing hijab but all the constituants. A system which guarantees once and for all that no group will ever be able to force its views and beliefs on others. You will be happy in such a system, I would too, Chelhman I believe so, LeMAsk will never accept that system smiling smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2006 06:27 by zaki7.

Ilhem2

27 October 2006 08:57

sarah70,

you should know how the other side thinks!.....did you ask yourself one single time why girls with hijab are not particularly wanted…or at least not in many areas ??…that has its reason I believe….I’ll tell you from a couple of my experiences….each time I had to deal with girls with hijab they will always try to emphasize the religion…..apart from the religion you can not to talk with them about many things or share with them any other interests….they will preach and play the imam most of time…. more over if somebody is not religious they will straightway disclose him/her and he/she will be all time criticized ….labeled and judged as kafir….. in fact this a kind of discrimination too coming from the fact they think they are special or superior whereas the religion makes you better for yourself not for others ….in many work areas employers don’t like employee who wants to express particular believe or belonging to avoid many cliches or some conflicts…..this is their right and each company has got its own strategy…….once the girls wearing the veil learn to accept others with all their differences I’m sure they will be accepted too….one day……victimisation is not always the best way.....

chelhman

27 October 2006 10:45

Quote

LeMask
chelhman, i really dont think you are honest...

You're too kind smiling smiley

Quote

in the western world, there is people who believe that there is indeed a "fight" between our countries (muslim) and theirs... they BELIEVE THAT.

take an example, the riots in Paris... the English medias presented these as a "muslim revolt in France"...
now, if it's true or not, i really dont care... because there is enough people believing that to make it "like true".
and about the lost cultural war... i really dont follow you. it's never lost.

Yes there are people who believe in a bipolar world, but since you've put yourself in a one of those poles, you feel attacked, I don't.
Which part of "the best of both worlds" don't you understand ?
I'm am neither and I am both at the same time, so the idiotic comments from an english newspaper or an arab newspaper just slide on me.

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have you forgot how these occidental empires raped our countries? you call that a good culture we have to copy? i'm sorry, but i fail to see any good thing in them we dont already have.
we have a huge and rich legacy, all we have to do is to follow it.
we are talking here about learning from outsiders while we dont even use what we have.

it's like if you had tools in your house and that you were thinking about buying new ones... first, use what you have.

and by the way, it's by following the christian culture that we lost Andalousia... while drinking wine and enjoying women, they forgot to defend their brothers... and slowly they were kicked out to the sea like rats...

you are so blind... you said it yourself, we were part of a great civilization. isnt it the proof that our "culture" isnt bad?
what is this lack of confidence? where is your strength?

always asking ourselves like slaves what the occident can do for us... what can you do for yourself?

but anyway, you think that we should learn from the Occident. and i say that the occident did criminal things in our countries (look at Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Algeria, Libya...)... i dont trust these guys.

You should sink yourself in some history books. You have a sugarcoated version of what the islamization was. Do you seriously believe that they arrived in a country and offered candy to people asking them to convert ?
Every civilization has its bloody share of history. But every civilization brought something good as well, Arabs brought knowledge, medecine, mathematics, astronomy, philosophy.
Europeans did exactly the same, they brought technology and the concept of industry.
Every wave of civilization builds on the heritage of the last.

But in your twisted, single-minded view, you see only the worst in others and only the best in you.

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and by the way, i believe in the Umma. Algeria's and Tunisia's populations are just the Morrocan population... it would be great if we could unite and make one country

I know, that's because you're delusional.

Here's a reality check for you :

There is no Umma anymore, there are nations, each and every one of these nations has national interests and does everything it can to defend them.
Take our example, we have a conflict with a member of your non-existent Umma about the Sahara. Now, if there was an Umma, wouldn't that conflict be resolved already ? Maybe through the intervention of another member of your non-existent Umma, let's say Indonesia smiling smiley

If you want anything ressembling an Umma, take a look at the European Union. smiling smiley

That's the tragedy of people like you, the lack of pragmatism and realism.

Quote

i have a dream my friend. a muslim money... same kind of money all over the muslim world. the kind of money you can earn only muslim style (no interests and such, hard work only)... and more and more...

we could rock the world that way...

Well, I have another one.
Knowledge being the engine running people lives, that way we could move on and stop lamenting about a glorious past.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2006 02:01 by chelhman.

LeMask

27 October 2006 17:30

chelhman, you really dont get it?
WE ARE put in a pole...

the day i was born someone classed me in a pole. so i'm in a pole. it's not up to me. it was decided for me a long time ago. i was born an enemy for some people.

so, it's a reality for me. so if i have to choose a side, it will be the side of those who see me as a potential friend.

take the economics, our poverty=their wealth.

at 1950... cheap oil in USA = low oil income in Iraq

great french empire = enslaved Morroco and Algeria

good western weapon commerce = Iran and Iraq, brother countries fighting each others and buying weapons with oil money

and more and more... they are sucking our blood.
when the Oil rich arab countries want to invest in our countries, there is always someone from USA asking them to invest in their already rich countries.
it was always like that.

and we arent alone, take countries like Venezuela and such... same problems...

we need independance... and note that independance doesnt mean isolation... we arent talibans.

so i wish you could afford more solidarity. we could benefit from them, but we dont have to act like if we were dependant.
they need us.

chelhman , you should try to understand harder.
i dont love the arabs inconditionnaly.
how they converted the people in Morroco is history. they did a lot of wrong things, and we are still paying the price of these crimes.
and if you study the history of Morroco, you would see that the berberes werent so brilliant neither.

and we have plenty of Arab morrocans (majority if i'm not mistaken) should we call them invaders and chase them? come on. they are in the same ship as us.
and if i should call these arabs my brothers, then why not add to the group their other arab brothers in other countries?

are we turning racist? should we do like the arabs and be racist? make a distinction between arab muslims and berbere muslims?

and yes, the Umma is here, you just dont see it.
we are right now oppressed by a ruling class.
these "nations" have NO meaning to me. what if i took an erasor and took them off a map, what would happen?
i would go to hell? ooohh... come on. stop caring for a symbol on a map.
care about people... human beings...

these nations are only control area. some dude said that X land belonged to him, and that the people there had to follow his ruling. and when you say that you want to move his control area. he attacks you and say that you are the one attacking him.

and look at Palestine... you see? they changed these holy lines and added new ones...

zaki7

27 October 2006 18:50

Is is sad to see victimization at its best. No my friend, you were not born enemy to other people, and other people were not born enemy to you. You are desperately looking for ennemies, again, it is a very narrow view of putting people and cultures in boxes. The very thing you appear to complain about..

when the Oil rich arab countries want to invest in our countries, there is always someone from USA asking them to invest in their already rich countries.
it was always like that.

what are you talking about? Do you read yourself sometimes? Saudi investors own stocks in the biggest US companies and make or break a Dow Jones average every day on all Street. Wake up my friend. Money has no nationality and certainly no color or religion.

And no we are not turning racist by saying that Morocco is a multi-racial, multi-ethnic society. Again, repeat after me : IT OS OK TO BE DIFFERENT smiling smiley

Racism is when we say that Moroccan are Arabs period. That is simply not true. May be you should go do a DNA test to figure that out. We have by history and FOR A FACT in this order: Berber (incl. Jewish tribes) blood, Roman blood, Arab Blood, and Euro-Andalusian blood. Taking one of these historical facts and disregarding all the other ones is the very definition of exclusion and racism.

The Umma has another name, it is called Utopia. It is some kind of Battlestar Galactica fiction that will never happen for the simple fact that we moved from the empire models a long time ago, not just muslims but also christians.

these "nations" have NO meaning to me. what if i took an erasor and took them off a map, what would happen?
i would go to hell? ooohh... come on. stop caring for a symbol on a map.
care about people... human beings...

You mean to say care about human beings that share my beliefs... and do not care about other human beings that you are willing to "erase" from the map. Pathetic.

You are 3 years away from joining a salafist organization with this kind of rhetoric smiling smiley

chelhman

27 October 2006 18:56

LeMask,

I'd add something to what Zaki7 said but I could be sued for "cruel and unusual punishment" smiling smiley

One little detail though when you said :

and we have plenty of Arab morrocans (majority if i'm not mistaken)

you pricked my berber pride, so the answer is no, berbers are the majority in Morocco, check the stats.

aziz_dk

27 October 2006 19:03

Hi I have something for you all!

If you are muslim or you thought you are one, you have to choose a side.
there is no globalization, yes for them "white and christian" look at europe they are stopping immigration from Africa and they know very much they need workers but not us "arab, muslim and black" in the other hand. they are openning for Romania, Bulgaria a very retarded countries just for one reason they are white and Christian.

Hijab or short skirt they just playing with our mind, making us busy, building argument against each other, putting doubt in our religion.

Coran said it "wa lan taghfira 3alayka el yahoudo wa nassara hata tatabi3a milatahoum" .

why jeans should be right feeting and not jalaba and foukia "both moroccan style" , I really feel good in foukia back home.
but they always make there stuff right and build it up with the right argument.

you see they produce cigarette, alcohol and there is no jail for seeling it or using it. We all know it kill you.
Drugs take you to jail cause is made by black and arab countries.

can´t you guys see when an Arab make a crime they say Muslim did that but when is one of them, why dont they say christian or jew did that.

They have respect for there relegion and dont want to push each others buttons but dont care about us.

Actually if you want to think like them and think you are intergrated and just some foolish retareded called muslim blowing that for you be my guest.

Aziz_dk

chelhman

27 October 2006 19:12

aziz_dk, welcome among us, there's a seat near LeMask, why don't you sit next to him, you two are going to be very good friends. smiling smiley

I'm sorry, I'd like to argue with you but it's friday and I've had a long week.

LeMask

27 October 2006 20:12

chelhman you have no arguments. you just mock and laugh at people.

and you should swallow your berbere pride... it have no meaning.
US citizens are as proud as you, english people are as pride as you.
really poor value... what have you done to be berbere? to be proud?

and chelhman, money doesnt have any kind of nationality and color indeed.
but i'm sad to see that rather than investing in our countries, there is fellow muslim investing in other places. it's sad. because while their money is sleeping in a bank in Switzerland... we go to Switzerland to ask them for money, and they make us pay for interests...

if you see what i mean.

and there is also a way to make money in Islam. interests and making money without working in general is seen in a very bad eye. because money is supposed to be human work. so, if you dont work for your money, someone will have to change it into human work to give it a value... reminds me slavery... but anyway...

i'm very sad, i feel like if we had the solution to all our problems in our hands... but we are doing nothing.

zaki7

27 October 2006 20:51

Quote
LeMask
chelhman you have no arguments. you just mock and laugh at people.

and you should swallow your berbere pride... it have no meaning.
US citizens are as proud as you, english people are as pride as you.
really poor value... what have you done to be berbere? to be proud?

Yes they are proud of their origins? So? They also fly planes, we should may be stop flying planes just because they do? --> Weak argument.

and chelhman, money doesnt have any kind of nationality and color indeed.
but i'm sad to see that rather than investing in our countries, there is fellow muslim investing in other places. it's sad. because while their money is sleeping in a bank in Switzerland... we go to Switzerland to ask them for money, and they make us pay for interests...

Well the fellow muslim decided where to invest his money, why do you blame the US or Europe if that muslim brother of yours does not want or does not trust the marketplace in your country to not invest there? Again another example of victimization.

if you see what i mean.

and there is also a way to make money in Islam. interests and making money without working in general is seen in a very bad eye. because money is supposed to be human work. so, if you dont work for your money, someone will have to change it into human work to give it a value... reminds me slavery... but anyway...

??? where is the starting point and the ending point of this point? I didn't get this one.

i'm very sad, i feel like if we had the solution to all our problems in our hands... but we are doing nothing.

And what would this solution be? Rejecting the other and blaiming him for all our failures? Funny how WE are so perfect and THEY are so evil

chelhman

27 October 2006 21:00

LeMask,

I was going to give a rest for tonight but ma kat 7chemch smiling smiley

No arguments ? You're kidding with that, right ? You haven't been able to articulate one single original thought since this whole debate began. I gave you plenty of arguments well articulated and well documented.

You, on the other hand, keep quoting the same perrot speeches I've heard a million times. When I give you an argument, you don't counter-argue, you move on to something else and evade.

About your money argument, it's off topic here but I'll give my POV.
Islamic banking is fine, however when 98 % of the world uses one system, it is ridiculous to work with a different one. The financial world is too interdependent and interconnected, isolation is synonymous with non-growth.
One last thing, the very little I know about islamic banking is on real estate, and I find it to be no different than the standard one. The islamic bank buys the house for you, but you still have to pay an overcharge, then how is that different from interests except the fact that they don't call it that ?

It's simply hypocritical.
Now if you want a debate on that, open a new topic, I'll research the matter fully and we'll debate the pros and cons.

As for your berber jab, you're on very thin ice, I am a moroccan berber, if you got a problem with that, there's a post here about the matter. We can debate that as well.

All and all, my friend, you give me the impression of someone who refuses to adapt to the world around him, you have a binary vision of everything, given your hostility to the west and your love of arab orthodoxy, I assume you live in the Gulf ? or somewhere in the area ?
I'm sure someone of your integrity wouldn't like to mix with such bloody colonizers, right ?

zaki7

27 October 2006 21:05

1- You have nothing for us, you have may be something for yourself, good luck with it, but don't speak in our name please, it happens to irritate me and I don't like that smiling smiley

2- If I am muslim or non-muslim is non of the business of anybody else besides me amd my god. Next time you start categorizing and saying who is muslim or not, apologize to God because he never delegated this power to you.

3- I chose my side, my side is to be with the righteous humankind, on a personal level, not on a "they: and "us" level, I take humans one by one, I do not lump everybody in the same basket just because it happens they are from this or this country or they have a different set of cultural values or a different religion. I know tons of "foreigners" who do more good than most of the muslims I know. Do I generalize and say that muslims are a greedy people? No. Because I can differentiate between a reality, the true meaning of our religion and an ideology.

4- Yeah there is no globalization, sorry, you're just using a tool called the internet invented by the US on a computer manufactured in China running a software made in India, communicating with me in the english language, about to drive a japanese car in few hours and wearing clothes made in mexico. No there is no globalization, you're right, my mistake... I've just been dreaming the last couple of decades.

5- Yousay: can´t you guys see when an Arab make a crime they say Muslim did that but when is one of them, why dont they say christian or jew did that.

Yeah, you know why they say a muslim did it? Because that stupid f. (excuse my french) that you call and they call muslim before slaughtering another human being and filming everything to give out to these media says Allah Akbar and talks in the name of my religion, just as you allow yourself to talk in the name of muslims and decide who gets to be a good muslim and who is not.

6- Reality check: Muslims in "western" countries practice their religion more freely than in their native countries, that cancels out your last argument.

Sorry I can't stand misrepresentations, and if you are counting on me to stand by your side and say viva Bn Laden just because it happens that you are muslim and I am muslim, you're pushing your luck.

Quote
aziz_dk
Hi I have something for you all!

If you are muslim or you thought you are one, you have to choose a side.
there is no globalization, yes for them "white and christian" look at europe they are stopping immigration from Africa and they know very much they need workers but not us "arab, muslim and black" in the other hand. they are openning for Romania, Bulgaria a very retarded countries just for one reason they are white and Christian.

Hijab or short skirt they just playing with our mind, making us busy, building argument against each other, putting doubt in our religion.

Coran said it "wa lan taghfira 3alayka el yahoudo wa nassara hata tatabi3a milatahoum" .

why jeans should be right feeting and not jalaba and foukia "both moroccan style" , I really feel good in foukia back home.
but they always make there stuff right and build it up with the right argument.

you see they produce cigarette, alcohol and there is no jail for seeling it or using it. We all know it kill you.
Drugs take you to jail cause is made by black and arab countries.

can´t you guys see when an Arab make a crime they say Muslim did that but when is one of them, why dont they say christian or jew did that.

They have respect for there relegion and dont want to push each others buttons but dont care about us.

Actually if you want to think like them and think you are intergrated and just some foolish retareded called muslim blowing that for you be my guest.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2006 09:10 by zaki7.

LeMask

27 October 2006 22:39

zaki7, i'm opposed to these "i'm proud of"... in general i accept it as "i'm not ashamed of my origin"... but it doesnt mean a lot to me.
it's not very constructive. everybody can be prood of himself. but it wont lead you anywhere, and it doesnt make you a better character. but it could be dangerous... some people could hate it.

go say to white dude "i'm proud to be black" and then he will answer "then i should be ashamed to be white maybe?" and here, you get a conflict over nothing.

and this "pride" could lead to trouble. like... i dont know, maybe denial?
if i said "berberes arent angels, look at history, they were enslaved by anyone moving through the area"... or something of this kind. anyway... i call that overweight like nationalism. we better be as light as possible and drop the useless stuff. my personnal opinion.

and Zaki, you are right, i have no right to define who is muslim and who isnt. someone said that you are muslim once you say the "Chahada"... but it's a source of problems. i have a hard time accepting that people like Ben Laden or Saddam Hussein are muslims... it's sad.
maybe muslims but criminals? i dont know. i have to think on this point.

Zaki i dont know if i said so, but right now, i speak for myself, none here is related to me. i'm just talking as an individual. i dont speak in the name of the muslims/morrocans or such... just me.

Quote

4- Yeah there is no globalization, sorry, you're just using a tool called the internet invented by the US on a computer manufactured in China running a software made in India, communicating with me in the english language, about to drive a japanese car in few hours and wearing clothes made in mexico. No there is no globalization, you're right, my mistake... I've just been dreaming the last couple of decades.

why you speak about globalization?
is it a crime if i want to build my own cars? if i want to use my own technology? if i want to be independant? where is the crime?
i just said "i dont trust them, i prefer to see them out and do it myself." so why you complain?

Quote

6- Reality check: Muslims in "western" countries practice their religion more freely than in their native countries, that cancels out your last argument.

you are right, shouldnt we work on it?
because of governments who want to please foreigners... we cant practice our religion as we want in our own countries. isnt it sad?

we have to refuse any influence from outsiders... my land, i do what i want... you talk to me without my invitation, you are an aggressor and i deal with you as an aggressor.

concept definition i call that.

and Zaki, you make the same mistake as chelhman, you make me say what i didnt say.

Quote

Yes they are proud of their origins? So? They also fly planes, we should may be stop flying planes just because they do? --> Weak argument.

i didnt said that. i say, let's build our own planes.
and dont tell that it's impossible. hard maybe... but not impossible.

Quote

Well the fellow muslim decided where to invest his money, why do you blame the US or Europe if that muslim brother of yours does not want or does not trust the marketplace in your country to not invest there? Again another example of victimization.

victimization? dont push it too far.
i just say that it's sad.
but there is also some foreign intervention in it. once you want to be "too independant", something happens to you. i think there is somekind of conspiracy, or maybe... just a system of interests (what is good for us is bad for others)... but i have no serious materials to back it up at the moment.

Quote

??? where is the starting point and the ending point of this point? smiling smiley I didn't get this one.

just think for a moment.
there is people who are rich, they can make money by sleeping. they take one month of vacations, and when they come back, there is more money in their bank account.
do you know what is the meaning of this? there is a superior class in the world. people who dont have to work to live like kings.
while there is an inferior class who have to work for them forever.

marxist (communists?) call it a parasite class.

i call it slavery... once again, personnal opinion. it explains why the rich get richer, while the poors get poorer.

Quote

And what would this solution be? Rejecting the other and blaiming him for all our failures? Funny how WE are so perfect and THEY are so evil

we? perfect? when i said that?
we arent... oh no. come on man. you know that i didnt stop calling them false/bad muslims.

i want a healthy practice of Islam. hard work, honesty, care for the poors (people unable to work), no more money wasting (luxury and other fashion useless stuff), more education, less crime, more freedom...

but somehow, there is people traumatized by the Talibans who link Islam with violence and terrorism.
and i'm sad to see that there is muslims who think that way as well.

zaki7

28 October 2006 00:52

Quote
LeMask
zaki7, i'm opposed to these "i'm proud of"... in general i accept it as "i'm not ashamed of my origin"... but it doesnt mean a lot to me.
it's not very constructive. everybody can be prood of himself. but it wont lead you anywhere, and it doesnt make you a better character. but it could be dangerous... some people could hate it.

go say to white dude "i'm proud to be black" and then he will answer "then i should be ashamed to be white maybe?" and here, you get a conflict over nothing.

and this "pride" could lead to trouble. like... i dont know, maybe denial?
if i said "berberes arent angels, look at history, they were enslaved by anyone moving through the area"... or something of this kind. anyway... i call that overweight like nationalism. we better be as light as possible and drop the useless stuff. my personnal opinion.

Reaaaally, So you know all of that? Now replace the world Black by Muslim and the word White by non muslim.

and Zaki, you are right, i have no right to define who is muslim and who isnt. someone said that you are muslim once you say the "Chahada"... but it's a source of problems. i have a hard time accepting that people like Ben Laden or Saddam Hussein are muslims... it's sad.
maybe muslims but criminals? i dont know. i have to think on this point.

Zaki i dont know if i said so, but right now, i speak for myself, none here is related to me. i'm just talking as an individual. i dont speak in the name of the muslims/morrocans or such... just me.

Quote

4- Yeah there is no globalization, sorry, you're just using a tool called the internet invented by the US on a computer manufactured in China running a software made in India, communicating with me in the english language, about to drive a japanese car in few hours and wearing clothes made in mexico. No there is no globalization, you're right, my mistake... I've just been dreaming the last couple of decades.
why you speak about globalization?
is it a crime if i want to build my own cars? if i want to use my own technology? if i want to be independant? where is the crime?
i just said "i dont trust them, i prefer to see them out and do it myself." so why you complain?

Nope it's not a crime, good luck with that, there is virtually no coutry today that bilds a highly complicated machine by itself. Even the US. I am talking about globalization to reply to Aziz_dk, this message was for him actually, that is why you're confused

Quote

6- Reality check: Muslims in "western" countries practice their religion more freely than in their native countries, that cancels out your last argument.
you are right, shouldnt we work on it?
because of governments who want to please foreigners... we cant practice our religion as we want in our own countries. isnt it sad?

Yes, we should, principle number 1 of those western countries "separation of church and state and freedom for everybody, religious and non religious. I am all for it, when do we start?

we have to refuse any influence from outsiders... my land, i do what i want... you talk to me without my invitation, you are an aggressor and i deal with you as an aggressor.

Last time I checked, that kind of thinking lead to the Taliban regime. Even Iran talks to foreign powers...

concept definition i call that.

and Zaki, you make the same mistake as chelhman, you make me say what i didnt say.

That is because I didn't make you say what you didn't say, unless you are Aziz_dk

Quote

Yes they are proud of their origins? So? They also fly planes, we should may be stop flying planes just because they do? --> Weak argument.
i didnt said that. i say, let's build our own planes.
and dont tell that it's impossible. hard maybe... but not impossible.

Quote

Well the fellow muslim decided where to invest his money, why do you blame the US or Europe if that muslim brother of yours does not want or does not trust the marketplace in your country to not invest there? Again another example of victimization.
victimization? dont push it too far.
i just say that it's sad.
but there is also some foreign intervention in it. once you want to be "too independant", something happens to you. i think there is somekind of conspiracy, or maybe... just a system of interests (what is good for us is bad for others)... but i have no serious materials to back it up at the moment.

Quote

??? where is the starting point and the ending point of this point? smiling smiley I didn't get this one.
just think for a moment.
there is people who are rich, they can make money by sleeping. they take one month of vacations, and when they come back, there is more money in their bank account.
do you know what is the meaning of this? there is a superior class in the world. people who dont have to work to live like kings.
while there is an inferior class who have to work for them forever.

marxist (communists?) call it a parasite class.

i call it slavery... once again, personnal opinion. it explains why the rich get richer, while the poors get poorer.

Quote

And what would this solution be? Rejecting the other and blaiming him for all our failures? Funny how WE are so perfect and THEY are so evil
we? perfect? when i said that?
we arent... oh no. come on man. you know that i didnt stop calling them false/bad muslims.

i want a healthy practice of Islam. hard work, honesty, care for the poors (people unable to work), no more money wasting (luxury and other fashion useless stuff), more education, less crime, more freedom...

but somehow, there is people traumatized by the Talibans who link Islam with violence and terrorism.
and i'm sad to see that there is muslims who think that way as well.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2006 12:55 by zaki7.

zaki7

28 October 2006 01:31

There is right now on 2M satellite a very very interesting about this very topic : The muslim and his relationship with the "other".

LeMask

28 October 2006 13:43

zaki7 okay!

Quote

Reaaaally, So you know all of that? Now replace the world Black by Muslim and the word White by non muslim.

so? ... i dont see myself say "i'm proud to be muslim"... even if muslims did great things (in the past at least) i dont see the use of saying that i'm proud of being muslim. but i'm not ashamed of being. i'm muslim? someone have a problem with that?

Quote

Nope it's not a crime, good luck with that, there is virtually no coutry today that bilds a highly complicated machine by itself. Even the US. I am talking about globalization to reply to Aziz_dk, this message was for him actually, that is why you're confused smiling smiley

oh, you know, i wont give you a cheap talk like "ahahah, even USA use muslim scientists and bla bla"...
but come on. is it so hard?
Iran builds it's own weapons (light equipement), Turkia makes their own tanks.
Bresil make airplanes... and... in the "muslim world" there is extremely rich countries. dont you think that they can stop buying nice cars and make a real industry? solar plants in the desert? schools? universities?

the problem isnt here. we have ressources, human ressources, natural ressources, know-how, money and more and more...
dont underestimate what 1.4billion people can do.

come on man, it will be hard, it will take time. but we can do it.

Quote

Yes, we should, principle number 1 of those western countries "separation of church and state and freedom for everybody, religious and non religious. I am all for it, when do we start?

ah, now we are talking.
church and state? that is very interesting.
if you asked me 5years ago, i would had told you that we are "different" (in our culture and our religion) and that separation of church and state is maybe good for them... but it's not the case in our countries and with our religion.

but you know what? today,i would give you the same argument, but in a different manner.
we are muslims dude, we have no Church... we have no mosque, we have no clergy.

but if you look carefully, you will see that in the "modern Morroco" (today) we have a clergy. the king plays the role of the clergy.
plz, note that i'm opposed to the monarchy as a system. but i'm not against the actual monarchy because our king looks like a good man (in my eyes at least). i dont know if my image of him is correct, but it looks like he is doing a good job on many points. it's hard to deal with the uneducated people, the terrorism threat, the Americans, the military (corrupt) and the economic situation. but anyway... there is hope.

but let's take a more general view. not just Morroco, but the Umma i dream about.
let's take all the muslims living there, and i mean by muslims the people who want to live following the rules of Islam.
they will make their own way of life. based on their principles.
and they will give to the minorities living in the same lands as them (Jews, Christians and even Atheists) independance to set their own rules... and find a comon ground to live together.

it's a bit opposed to the democracy principle... but democracy turns to be (very often) the dictatorship of the majority.

let's take a good page of history. when Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in peace in Jerusalem.

isnt it a proof that they can agree with each others? that they can live in peace? they did it for years in the past.

it would solve all the problems if you want my opinion. the muslims would be following their religion (happy!!!!! Clap

) and the problem of Israel is solved...

but for that, we would have to take out from power an important ruling class all over the world... take out a LOT of economic interests (weapons and more)...

and this is the hard part of our job. but when god said that heaven was on earth? it wont be an easy task. we will go through hell to do that.

because we will have to fight the evil laying withing the human mind... greed, love for power, love for easy tasks and laziness...

this is why we need more support. because it will be a long task. we need more help.
and right now, it wont happen without the help of the "Christian world" (Europe, America, Africa and others...) i dont rely on goverments, but on people, the honest hard working class.

and it will hapen some day...

the poor honest worker is getting poor while the rich useless landowners and shareholeders are getting more rich...
it will break loose at some point.

zaki7

28 October 2006 15:52

A quick answer about the church comment:

I said church because the principle is known as separation of church and state in these countries. Yes in Morocco, we don't have that principle written in the constitution and it is pretty much what is applied in the society. We don't have a theocracy so there is a separation of religion and state as of today, that might be changing when the PJD will take over but it will be interesting to see to what degree they will be able to introduce religious laws in a society that is used to not be told what to do and not to do on a personal level.

Now to the subject, Listen my friend, there are 2 ways of dealing with the crisis that the muslim world is living today, not 3 not 4.

The first one is to say: there is no crisis. We are the best, we are better than christians, better than jews and better than everybody else. We teach that to our children from an early age so that they are filled with this sense of exclusiveness wich will with no doubt transform in a feeling of hatred when they grow up (remember the muslims VS the christians little fights in the derb our kids love to play in Morocco?). We don't care about the world, we reject interactions between people and races and other cultures. We shut down our doors and windows and live like that repeating the mistakes of the past.

The second option is to say: ok, we live today in a globalized world whether we like it or not. The western world has many great values and achievements that we can adopt. We as muslims lead experiences in the past that showed us that the golden ages of our people were when we mixed and when there was an interfaith and intercultural interaction with other people and a mutual respect for other religions. This is when Islam had such a great aura that he was very attractive to almost everybody who studied it. That is the approach christianity adopted towards Islam when Islam was at its peak. Christians learned and studied arabic to be able to interact with muslims and learn from them, they understood then from muslims what the greek wrote in addition to the advances in sciences achieved by muslims, they then applied what they learned to improve their lives and were able to live their renaissance and to get where they got today.

I have 2 arguments to prove my point about the universality of Islam and why it is incompatible with rejecting the others:

a) Islam as a religion has a universal message. It is the force of our religion, there is no exclusiveness. When a Malcolm X goes to Mecca and sees people from all races, all walk of lifes, all origins, all colors bowing to the same god, he gets this universal message. People tend to welcome a religion that welcomes them and reject a religion that rejects them, it's really not hard to understand.

Christianity evolved and adopted this approach very well. Its image now is an open religion of love and compassion, never judging the other based on his belief and helping the human being above any other consideration but the fact that he is a human being first. That is why you see them helping all over the world, in muslim, non muslim, atheist countries, etc.. That gives their religion a very powerful and tempting message of universality. I applaud them for that, especially when I know what their message was few centuries ago with the inquisition and the burning (litterally) of people who challenged what THEY thought was the real christianity. So if you ask me Islam is at this crossroad that will lead him to either an inquisition period where discussion in some spheres are based on an erroneous message of Islam stripped from its universality and concentrated on "fighting an enemy" or to an openess period where ijtihad will be used positively to make people more comfortable living with their age and with non-muslims.

I cite the famous soura:

"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you"

Now how can we ignore the word of God? How can we twist a soura like this and say no we are going to ignore the rest of the world and stay within us, us being the most righteous and the best and the most beautiful people on earth because it happens that we are... muslims.

You also know the story of prophet Mohamad PBUH standing up as a sign of respect for a funeral that was passing by when a man approached him and told him: But Prophet, why do you stand up for a jewish funeral? and him to reply: Is it not a human soul?

There are many other examples and you probably also know that prophet Mohamad PBUH married a jewish lady by the name of Sufiah Bint Alnudair, the daughter of the leader of the Nudair tribe.

All of these acts and deeds are to me a sign of openess and any attempt to make Islam an exclusive religion where muslims do not communicate with other races and countries is a deviation from the universal human approach of Islam.

So tell me, are we better than the Prophet of a religion that we adhere to? Are we so fond of ourselves and so blind so that we allow ourselves to ignore the basic teachings of this religion in order to affirm ourselves on a world stage?

LeMask

28 October 2006 16:17

but when did i said that the Muslims are the best?
if you knew more about religion you would know that religion is indeed used to judge a man. but it's in a list of other human qualities (work, intelligence, reputation and more) to judge a human being.

but you can accuse me of prefering people like me. come on. it's natural, i have to stay fair, but is it a crime to love the culture i grew up in? the culture of the people who speak the same language as me? who practice their faiths in the same way as me?
eh dude,give the man some air...

but i dont agree with you. there is many ways... this globalization (even if i dont know why we are talking about it here) isnt holy, it's not important. it's only the actual level of the Western society... it will change someday. it's not important. it will disappear with the people who made it.

dont overweight your mind with useless things. i dont want a "system" working NOW or TODAY... i want a system that would work FOREVER...

so name your conditions,i'm looking for friends and allies.

you say that a society have to be open toward the exterior? i fully agree.
but should we open our doors to people to people we dont trust? should we open our doors to our enemies? should we give priority to people far from us and refuse people who are close to us(Muslims+arab countries)?

i dont trust the US government, and i think that we are going to get hurt if we follow them or get too close. i prefer the Arab countries and Europe. where is the problem? i love the Europeans better. is it a crime? and i dont trust the capitalists, is it a crime?

and plz, dont put me next to these kids in the derbs who mistreat christians/jews/atheists/gays/different people... i'm not a fascist. i want to intervene in nobody's life.
but i want perfect control of my life... because i'm a muslim, i have a duty. i believe in a god. and that someday, this god will judge me for my actions.
so i need to be free to control my actions.

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a) Islam as a religion has a universal message. It is the force of our religion, there is no exclusiveness. When a Malcolm X goes to Mecca and sees people from all races, all walk of lifes, all origins, all colors bowing to the same god, he gets this universal message. People tend to welcome a religion that welcomes them and reject a religion that rejects them, it's really not hard to understand.

oh god, i love you dude. great talk.
you hear that chelhman? this is really the point i want to reach. no skin color/nationality/ehnicality (berbere or not) barrier...
just human beings. the Umma in my dreams.

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Now how can we ignore the word of God? How can we twist a soura like this and say no we are going to ignore the rest of the world and stay within us, us being the most righteous and the best and the most beautiful people on earth because it happens that we are... muslims.

yes. but let's be clear.
we take countries like USA... who go make Aggression wars in Iraq based on lies to please some corporates looking to make money...
do we have something to learn from them? i have nothing to learn from these kind of people.

but if you look carefully at the REAL civilization in USA. it's not the white house. it's not the government. it's the people. the honest hard working and civilized people living there.
their culture of hard work, or freedom and bla bla...

this is the real civilization. but should we give them control over our lives for so much?

and by the way, shouldnt it be working in both ways? we have to learn from them. but dont they have something to learn from us?
come on.

i dont want to change to please outsiders who are just trying to make me live like them.

have some confidence in yourselves guys. dont be weak.

chelhman

28 October 2006 16:44

Quote

LeMask
you hear that chelhman? this is really the point i want to reach. no skin color/nationality/ehnicality (berbere or not) barrier...
just human beings. the Umma in my dreams.

I'd also like to fly an F117, run Daytona...etc, I have a better chance of accomplishing those than you witnessing the creation of your Umma.
I'm pragmatical, I deal with what's in front of me and right now there is no Umma, so I adapt. But you, like all tenants of a muslim orthodoxy, measure the world with a 14th century stick.
Besides, I already told you, I've taken the best of both worlds and ran with it. I'm doing fine, I have no conflict within me, I'm actually intellectually thriving and I'm not the only one here. Look at the writings of others on this forum, you're in the minority.

You, on the other hand, are deluding yourself and expect the world to morph around your delusion.
So I ask you, which of us is more sane and efficient ?

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2006 06:00 by chelhman.

aziz_dk

28 October 2006 20:40

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zaki7
1- You have nothing for us, you have may be something for yourself, good luck with it, but don't speak in our name please, it happens to irritate me and I don't like that

didn´t speak for your name, I never know u were an "Oncle TOM" too. it was my opinion, u can take it or leave it.

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zaki7

2- If I am muslim or non-muslim is non of the business of anybody else besides me amd my god. Next time you start categorizing and saying who is muslim or not, apologize to God because he never delegated this power to you.

You make me laugh, where did u read I was judging who is and not is muslim. It was just in your brain so you can make an argument, to support chelhman "that call him selv chelh and doesn´t speak his native language"

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zaki7
3- I chose my side, my side is to be with the righteous humankind, on a personal level, not on a "they: and "us" level, I take humans one by one, I do not lump everybody in the same basket just because it happens they are from this or this country or they have a different set of cultural values or a different religion. I know tons of "foreigners" who do more good than most of the muslims I know. Do I generalize and say that muslims are a greedy people? No. Because I can differentiate between a reality, the true meaning of our religion and an ideology.

I still tell you to choose a side, cause those right humankind you talk about, when it comes to trouble. they will let u alone. they stick together you know that, except if you wanna denied that.

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zaki7
4- Yeah there is no globalization, sorry, you're just using a tool called the internet invented by the US on a computer manufactured in China running a software made in India, communicating with me in the english language, about to drive a japanese car in few hours and wearing clothes made in mexico. No there is no globalization, you're right, my mistake... I've just been dreaming the last couple of decades.

No you were not dreaming just wasting your time thinking about economic issues, yes we have there cars drinking there Cola..as a consumer. when it comes to real stuff they put us out. most western countries has nuclear weapon, why aren´t we allowed. cause we are crazy, we can kill them. sorry to tell you they were the one using it.They start a war kill people with no reason and we should stick close to them they are our friends. "they are killing them cause they desorve to die" wake up!!
Does Irak war doesn´t hit you, they support each other on a lie and still do.

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zaki7
5- You say: can´t you guys see when an Arab make a crime they say Muslim did that but when is one of them, why dont they say christian or jew did that.

Yeah, you know why they say a muslim did it? Because that stupid f. (excuse my french) that you call and they call muslim before slaughtering another human being and filming everything to give out to these media says Allah Akbar and talks in the name of my religion, just as you allow yourself to talk in the name of muslims and decide who gets to be a good muslim and who is not.

once again I never said who is muslim or not.. Just to help you out, There is Coran and Sunna that is Islam, what people do everyday doesn´t represente Islam, iven though they were born in a Muslim country.
Stop using there argument and be your self, the media is getting to you. fustrated people do fustrated thing and don´t blame them dont judge them is Allah´s job. you blamming me for judging people and u are do one doing so.

War make people crazy, make them do crazy thing. just my 2 words make u about to kill me if I was close to u, dont blame other who have his familly member killed, rapped and dishonnered. I dont know what i will do, but I wont stay still and call them friends.

Killing is not in my entourage, so if somebody do that with no reason. He must have his own reason "crazy, pushed, forced, stuoid believe...lot of reason but i am very sure Islam is against that"

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zaki7
6- Reality check: Muslims in "western" countries practice their religion more freely than in their native countries, that cancels out your last argument.

Sorry I can't stand misrepresentations, and if you are counting on me to stand by your side and say viva Bn Laden just because it happens that you are muslim and I am muslim, you're pushing your luck.

Another wise argument from u again. now you win!!! Since you have ben laden as your muslim Icon..
cause for you the world is just to sides, sucking up to western people or to Benladen.

My world is people I know, with muslim background, so i can trust them, I know they are afraid from Allah before me to do any harm.
I can´t trust a western cause they don´t have values, may be some does but in certain level.

PS.Chelhman I did not answer your comment cause you are too young to be taking serious.
Read litle bit of Coran and Hadith, you always mentiomn people influence by Arabic satelite, u are one of them.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2006 08:51 by aziz_dk.

Aziz_dk

chelhman

28 October 2006 21:52

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aziz_dk
to support chelhman "that call him selv chelh and doesn´t speak his native language"

I'm from Aït Jerrar, if you knew anything about Souss, you'd know that Ajerrar have a specific dialect which a mix of tachel7it and darija that I speak perfectly. Any other personal attack ?

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