Morocco # English board

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chelhman
I'm from Aït Jerrar, if you knew anything about Souss, you'd know that Ajerrar have a specific dialect which a mix of tachel7it and darija that I speak perfectly. Any other personal attack ?

I dont know exactaly where is Ait jarrar but soussy speaks tachelhit, which have some words from darija.

you talked once about is close to teznit, I know teznit, ait melloul. in the other side in the major road to taroudante you have Houwara "called 44 or ouled taima".

the region is not known by tagine but actualy by bread baked on stone.. i mean the region between teznit and ait melloul ..

I did not attack you as a person, i just reminde you of something you say a while ago."you mentioned you dont speak the language".

I have no reason to attack you, I can not come down that level. we are not here for that.
in worst case i will leave the forom but not attack anybody personaly.

I can attack people´s ideas, we are intitle to disagree but not to be evil with each other.

aziz_dk,

Aït Jerrar is south of Tiznit, between Lakhssass and Tiznit. You're talking about the area between Agadir and Tiznit.
Xylophene mentioned he knows that area, he can confirm that in that particular region, people don't speak tachel7hit but a dialect close to it.
And yes it was a personal attack, read it again.

chelhman my parents are from the are of Erachidia. but i was born in the area of Rabat and never had the chance to learn Berbere. my classical arabic is near average (national arab education in highschool), i'm in France now as a student.

not that i deny my berbere roots... but i just love my religion, i want to believe in god even if there is times of doubt.

i have an ideal, and in this ideal, your origine, skin color isnt important.

in France they dont care if you come from Bretagne or south. they are french.
in USA they dont care if you come from the East cost or the West cost... they dont care.

and we as muslims have an extra duty compared to them. god asked us to mix in the Umma.
while Berberes are still marrying between them (and it's a source of some tiny conflicts).
some Berberes dont like to see their kids marrying black people, because black people were ex-slaves (have slave ancestors) (it's more social regulation than real racism, but it's still very sad)...

some come and say that it's fading away with modernity...
but guess what i say?
these kind of things wouldnt exist in the first place if the muslims were following their religion.

this is why i love my religion and trust her.
it's like a magical trick to solve all our problems.

problems? paf... disappear... no more... just a bad dream...

and plz, stop calling me delusional. i asked for nothing ridiculous or impossible.
plenty of people want the same as me.

and good luck finding your F117... yeah, i'm sure the Air Force would allow a muslim entity to fly a stealth aircraft... good luck.

LeMask,

Please show me your Umma, where is it ? Show me an organisation of muslim countries together, cooperating economically, exchanging technology, anything even remotely resembling the EU for instance ?

If you want to believe in a pipedream, that's your problem, but I do not want to live in a theocracy. The only model proposed to us by people who put religion center stage is a society based on orthodoxy that I do not wish for our country.

Religion is not a panacea, we live in a globalized world, so unless you and your friends take over the entire planet, you're going to have to live cut off from the rest if you want to go by the book.
Our country has established a middle ground a long time ago but people like you are trying to upset that balance.
It is not going to happen, therefore the only logical choice is to adapt to the world around you and to stop whining about great we were.
That era is over, it has been over for very a long time. But there is a movement, to which you seem to adhere, that, faced with social and political problems, seek refuge in a glorious past.

What you do not want to see is that you are puppets in a larger chess game, the players are the very people you claim to distrust. Read history, research and you'll find out for yourself.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2006 05:31 by chelhman.

chelhman what is this looser mentality?
"where is your Umma?" ... there is an Umma in the minds of so many people. isnt it enough to make it a reality?
someone here spoke about Mecca. isnt it an Umma? all these people from all kind of regions meeting into a place about a same topic, to do the same thing, speak and meditate about the same thing?
come on dude... why are you like this?

what is this lack of faith? what's wrong with you?

if there was an union of Arab governments i would know it. but right now there is none... because the Arab/muslim world isnt represented by their governments.

is the Tunisian government representing of their people? i dont think so.

so the people dont have what he wants/needs/thinks he need... that is why we have so many problems.

come on man, you give me some real hardcore talk... you speak like one of these missinformed guys on internet... in general i dont mind, they live in some dark place in Texas and think that Morroco is a tiny country in South America...
but from you? it's crazy...

LeMask,

My faith is not to be questioned, but it does not occupy every second of my life.
You seem to like simplistic views, you think muslims are heterogeneous, they're not. There is a world of difference between a Senegalese and a Thaï for instance. They might meet and get along for a while in Mecca but as soon as they get out of there, every one of them has a different culture, language, habits...etc


Speaking of Mecca, two years ago, I was in Morocco during the return of the hajj, I went to pick my aunt at the airport and I had a chat with her, she described to me how racist saudis are towards us.
They despise us, they even told her once that Moroccans shouldn't call themselves arabs, that they were the true Arabs, blablabla. And this is not the first time I'm hearing this, I've heard from other people as well.

The point is, religion does not constitute a cement strong enough to unite people.
Let's take Israel, people get the idea that they are the apex of religious unity, it's absolutely not true.
Our jews were despised and still are, the Falashas are parked in slums, there was even a scandal ten years ago about the destruction of blood donated by Falashas to blood banks, for obvious racist reasons.

Faith is just a part of what defines people. The illusion being evidently sold to you is that it's the remedy to everything, you said it yourself : "the magical trick to solve all problems".


Hit the books LeMask, the world is more complex than that, humans are more complex than that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2006 06:04 by chelhman.

chelhman yeah i get what you want to say.
but come on, show some optimism.

and by the way, what i meant by "faith" isnt your faith in god... but faith in me, in the arabs, in the arab world, in the muslims, in the muslim world, in the idea of Umma, in you...

be more confident...

and i'm sad to read what you wrote about the Saudis... but why should i care about the Saudis?
they are so important? and the way they treat their women isnt the proof that they are an underdevelopped countries?
the Saudis arent the representants of Islam. they treat very bad their employees coming from other neighboring countries... treat them like slaves to be honest. they are the home of terrorism. they are big allies of USA and allies of Israel... and bla bla bla...

why should i care about the Saudis?

but would you dare to tell me that in the orginal message of Islam (from the prophet) is carrying an ethnic symbol?
because i dont see any.

the fact that the Coran is wrote in Arabic doesnt mean that the Coran is for the arabs... or "made" to please Arab interests...

come on dude, this is basic knowledge.

but once again, i still think that Islam is the source of all the problems.
i dont say that we will follow the word of god, and that god will be happy and send us winning loto tickets to solve our problems... not at all.

arent you the one asking me to be pragmatic?

Islam is our education...

Islam=everything
human rights? Islam
war rules of engagement? Islam
women rights? Islam
society rules? Islam
way to behave? Islam
...

EVERYTHING...

make a man believe in Islam and he will be an usefull citizen.
he will work hard. he will gather knowledge. he will tell the truth.
he will fight corruption.
he will fight crime.
he will take of his family.
he will take of his neighbors.
he will take care of the poors actively.
he will help other countries when they are oppressed.
he wont fall for drugs or alcohol. he will be in good health.
he wont look to enslave his people for personnal interests and more and more...

ummm OKAY... this is for sure... if you dont agree, plz stop me here. if you agree. next step...

once you have all of THESE... what is your problem? you have everything.

and you know man, i'm a gamer, i love video games. i'm the leader of a team. we play in Arenas and such. and i use a very simple logic when i'm playing to choose a stretegy and a tactic...

the important isnt to have the BEST system... but a working system.
i could make a perfect system with everything already wrote on a paper, a bit like the french Rights (laws)... they have a law for everything.

or i could send my fellow players in a freelance mode... just asking them to "play as a team"... in the chaos of battle... no strategy is working. life is a battle.

every system have a advantages and inconvenients. but the problems is not from the system. but from the nature of the human being.

the important is to accept these inconvenients and to work on them. so faith is the MOST important thing a citizen should have. a faith in the system.

democracy isnt perfect... see how they are crawling in electoral BS every 4years? boring as hell... politics... very sad.
it's not what i want.

MAy be you should tone down the Video game playing, I think that's what lead you to confuse reality with utopia

On a more serious note, the points you raised about not stealing not killing, etc... true, Islam asks people to behave like that, but so does christianity and judaism, That is not exclusive to Islam. So actually, if all 3 religions have those common shared values, we need to be closer to each other in this world and not distance ourselves from the people of the book who share the same values.

The problem doesn't lie within Islam, the problem lies within muslims, and does not touch those empiric values and teachings but has to do more with one faction trying to impose its views on the other. Ok, let's say we have an "oumma" tomorrow, from Morocco to Indonesia, is it going to be sunni or chia? Are we going to impose hijab on 1.5 billion people society? Tell me what are those specific religious things that we will benefit from by being an oumma and that will not alter personal liberties of those countries? Because if you're thinking in economic arguments only, then we don't need an oumma my friend, we just need an economic union. What is it going to achieve that is different if those countries were in a EU-like union. Why bring religion that is interpreted within one family sometimes in a very different manner to one standardized way of thinking and living that is imposed to everyone? And my final question, why in the hell you would like to "stop communicating" with other people. I gave a soura earlier and an example of the openess of the Prophet PBUH. I am still waiting on somebody to ay that this verse is wrong and that we should not live by the idea behind it. So far, I am not getting an answer.

If you're presenting a personal view, that is fine, it is your right, but you have to tell us that your view is incompatible with the teachings of Islam.

Well done to both of you. I enjoyed your debate and I had a great time following your discussion.
Very interesting subject and I am glad that I was made aware of it through your posting.
Take care

LeMask,

The system you described is by definition a theocracy, we draw everything from religion to rule.
It already exists in Iran and in Saudia Arabia to some extent but the Iranians are applying it by the book.

It is flaud, their society is riddled with social problems, the lack of individual liberties is choking civil society, you're a gamer ? This past week the iranian governement decided to restrict the speed of broadband access to users (see below), drug use is rampant...etc
Is this really what you want for us ?

In the overwhelming majority of countries, people have decided to rule with the law of men not the law of God, because the law of God is written in stone and can not be debated, altered, reformed for fear of being called blasphemous.
This post is about a verse being taken out of the curricula in the moroccan education system, because what it insinuates is no longer compatible with our modern societies.
What you're advocating is detrimental to the notion of progress.

But you did put your finger on the problem, which is human nature.
After millions of years of evolution, we still respond to the same stimuli, we are territorial, we are predatorial, religion can indeed inhibit those instincts for a while, but scarcity brings them out again.

So, the only solution we've come up with, is a system of governement that can evolve with time, again the law of men, laws, theories debatable, alterable, adjustable.
But in a theocracy, who are you going to debate with ? The Book is untouchable, unalterable, a quick look at this forum tells us that it's undebatable.
Again, written in stone...

Religion is about beliefs, governing is about facts, by their very definition those two have never been able to mix and produce anything sustainable.
If the west has taught us something, is that to advance you need to separate those two, it's obvious just by looking at us.

Deniyng that, is just being stubborn, great people admit when they're wrong and move on, we still don't want to do that, that's why we can't reform or with great difficulty.


P.S : I'm a gamer too, single player only though, never tried online gaming, so we do have something in common
We can try an Umma of gamers if you want

[technology.guardian.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2006 05:36 by chelhman.

zaki7, stereotypes... i'm not a dumb geek... even if i say many of these i have to admit.
we have a passion for technology. and i started with video games. we have our tastes, strategy games and such for me... action games for others... and bla bla...
but you lear a lot. personnaly, it protected me from drugs and alcohol, i never took the time to follow my friends in these paths... but anyway... never mind...

Quote

On a more serious note, the points you raised about not stealing not killing, etc... true, Islam asks people to behave like that, but so does christianity and judaism, That is not exclusive to Islam. So actually, if all 3 religions have those common shared values, we need to be closer to each other in this world and not distance ourselves from the people of the book who share the same values.

indeed. these are important values. and we share them with christians and Jews (and even more)...

but when did i say that we should exclude them?
but still, there is many differences between us and them... we share a lot, so we should trust them to take care of themselves and give them independance... and take our independance at the same time/the same way.

but dont tell me that you see USA as a christian world? ... it's a part of it. but are they really carrying christian values? look how loved they are all over the world.

i really dont think so. i find more of these values in a lost church in a lost village in France than in a any big city in the USA...

i find education in countries like Canada... i find a culture of objective reports in Germany and UK (medias)...
but we should learn to see the difference between a government and the people...

anyway, dont get mixed up, we dont need them that much, and we CERTAINLY dont need their governments' influence.

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If you're presenting a personal view, that is fine, it is your right, but you have to tell us that your view is incompatible with the teachings of Islam.

oh thanks, but then we are starting on a missunderstanding.
you say it yourself. Islam is about communication... means i give and receive... it's the communication...
but right now, there is NONE. we are only receiving. they tell us what to think/do/ask and we do follow it like the good doggies we are.
and i think that we should stop that.

why should an american dude who doenst know a thing about my religion ask me to take out the word "Jihad" from my books?
seriously, if i was a diplomate or such i would cut the communication with whatever country sent me such moron to represent them. it's an insult.

for me Jihad= doing good stuff... sttrugle to make a better living. sometimes it means fighting "evil"... but it's a very important concept in our religion. how dare they try to influence us?

sorry man, i refuse any form of control, and more when it comes from an outsider with such bad reputation.

to Chelhman

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It is flaud, their society is riddled with social problems, the lack of individual liberties is choking civil society, you're a gamer ? This past week the iranian governement decided to restrict the speed of broadband access to users (see below), drug use is rampant...etc
Is this really what you want for us ?

i dont know, Iranians are Chiites, i dont understand these guys very good but still... i dont know.

are we forced to do like them? we cant do better? you are sure?
it will be like the Talibans or like the Iranians at worst? huh?
you sure? you accept defeat since the beginning.

and what if we do better than that?
what if we do a classless society? and what if we make a caring government trying to solve the problems of the society? how can you be so negative?

i didnt ask you to give the control to the Iranians or to the Talibans, but to give the people the right to choose how they want to live. why dont you trust people?

and what about my rights?
let's take an example, i'm Morrocan, and i think that the Morrocan army is worthless. just corrupt people sucking the money of the honest working people to buy useless equipement. + they are unable to protect the country from anyone. they are just good enough to beat up poor civilians (us).
i refuse to see my money (taxes) going to the military...

guess what happens? they would send me directly to prison for refusing to pay the taxes...

i could say the same about the governments...
i think they are corrupt and wasting my money. i want to stop funding them and paying taxes to another group.
i want to pay for different schools who teach in another language (berbere maybe?)...
i want to give more money to the hospitals... i cant.

you see the logic? where are my rights? are we really free?

and i could say the same in USA, Canada, Europe and more and more... everywhere...

we are living in a joke. we arent free. we are enslaved...
of course, they dont tell you that directly. they say that you have to make an association or an influence group...
or that you have to vote for a political group wanting the same as you do... what? i cant do a thing alone? this is democracy? the dictatorship of the majority? and what if the majority is dumb or corrupt?

and it works that way...
and the democracy in our countries isnt even working... in Egypt they slaughtered the Muslim brothers... and it gave us more terrorism.

we need more freedom.
and i think that an Islamic Umma following the original book would be perfect.
because we dont give powers to someone... but we decide to follow someone.
and if you dont agree or want to try something else... you do it in your life with your group without asking the others if they want.

even if we had to make a government at a tribe/village/city level...

for the simple reason that says that the muslim is free but responsible...
you do whatever you want, but if you break something, you pay it.

we dont have the right to control people...

1- I might have missed something, who is this US diplomat who is telling Morocco to take out the wod "Jihad" from manuals?

2- You don't need an american for that, I am Moroccan and I'll tell you at this time where the word Jihad is used by any lunatic to justify killing of innocent for a political to be either removed from manuals or have its meaning reviewed and explained. The word Jihad has a meaning in a context of war when you are attacked in your country, then what Jihad tells you to do is to fight the agressors, not their civilians, not their kids and not their wives. The Coran is very explicite about this. What we need to focus on in peaceful Morocco at this time is Ijtihad not Jihad.

3- for you Jihad is doing good stuff, good for you, but for some jihad has been explained in a very different way. The 60 virgins way...

4- Yu talk about stereotypes and yet few lines after, you generalize about americans. THe vast majority of americans are good people. You are generalizing because of the fact they have a "chimp in chief" that is doing bad things to say "americans are bad people". It is simply not true. The number 1 country that helps other countries with cash is America, more than all muslim and arabs countries combined. We can talk numbers if you want.

5- Yes of course what if we do better than. What if the stones turn into gold and what if we were sending rockets in the sky. What I am trying to tell you is I am talking reality, you are talking wishes and big dreams while categorizing the world into muslim and non-muslim, not taking into account countries and nationalities. This is very utopic to me, I can't understand it. Sorry

6- Little update about the moroccan army, you can say all you want about the moroccan army, you won't be thrown in jail, trust me, a member of the army just wrote an explosive book about the army, and he is free. Sometimes things are not so black as we would like to portray them. I can use the smae argument to tell you things are not perfect in our society because you will get thrown in jail for eating in Ramadan for example in Morocco. I am with you for more freedom, but would you be willing to go all the way and allowing everybody to do whatever they want including when it comes to religion?

7- You say: and i think that an Islamic Umma following the original book would be perfect. because we dont give powers to someone... but we decide to follow someone. Yup that's called Democracy in other countries... For the oumma, I think you laid out your point of view enough and I did too. Hell who knows, may be I am wrong and someday my afghani and iranian and egyptian and bosnian compatriot will be voting for the same leader and decinding of one law that goes from Morocco to Islambad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2006 04:47 by zaki7.

but zaki7, you see how far this can go?
we forbid Hijab because terrorists hide weapons on woman or disguise as women.
we forbid modern clothes because prostitutes wear the same.
we forbid the word Jihad because lunatics use it.
we forbid the word Jihad because it's scary to governments who could lose their grip on the population.
we ban the word "cancer" because X lost his mother to cancer and feels ban when he hears it.

and bla bla bla... and here, you find yourself enslaved. no dude... i keep everything.

it's up to them to live with it. not me.

but you are right, we have to explain the meaning of this word.

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The term "jihad" is often used to describe purely physical and military "religious war", through physical struggle. Some Muslim scholars say that this only makes up part of the broader meaning of the concept of jihad. The denotation is of a struggle, challenge, difficulty or (frequently) opposed effort, made either in accomplishment or as resistance. A person who engages in any form of jihad can be called a mujahid (in plural: mujahidin) (Arabic: striver, struggler). Such a person might engage in fighting as a military struggle for religious reasons, or for example, struggle to memorize the Qur'an. Jihad has gained a negative connotation and reputation in much of the West because of its usage by various groups classified by the United States of America as terrorist organizations as part of its War on terror. The Jihad had a reputation for this at the time.

here is an interesting quote from Wikipedia
[en.wikipedia.org]
(i invite you to read it, it's quite interesting)

and there, you see how ignorant fools (terrorists & others) give a bad reputation to a religious concept as noble as the Jihad.
sorry, but Jihad is a key concept in Islam. they wont take it from us. and if they arent happy, i dont give a damn. it's their problem, not mine.

and zaki7, i think you missed two important things in the first post. here they are.

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They said hijab is a poignant symbol of women's subordination to men.
Howeshri also said the move is part of a government policy to reform curricula in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

&

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It further proposed removing any references to "jihad" in the Islamic subjects.

two foreign interpretation of Islam changing our lives... i refuse that, since when we should accept any word from the Americans?
sorry. the goverment have to listen to ME. not the Americans, and if they arent happy, they will have to come here and talk to ME directly.
i named no one to talk in my name. sorry.

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3- for you Jihad is doing good stuff, good for you, but for some jihad has been explained in a very different way. The 60 virgins way...

why should i care? i'm not related to these guys. not my fault if there is uneducated people who believe anything they hear. life is like that.

no no Zaki, i refuse that from you. i hate generalization. i try as hard as possible to avoid that.
i said that the government of USA isnt welcome. dont mix governments and people... they arent the same.

there is a good muslim community in USA. there is a good christian community in USA. and more and more... but dont push it too far.

talk numbers? what are you going to proove?
that USA helps our countries? i dont believe you.
their money isnt needed. we need a work force, we need equipement&technology... the money they give us isnt so useful to us. it will be mostly used to bring down the value of our money and rise theirs.

just think for a second how the world would be if every country in the world said "i dont want your money keep it for yourself".... if Morroco asked for money in DH rather than in $...

if it was so good we would be a rich country by now... sorry dude, i dont follow that.

and following the numbers, they are helping Israel much more than us. and they arent our friends in Israel. oh, i hate Zionnists by the way. and i dont mix them with the Jews.

and Zaki, the army was just an example. what if i asked to stop giving my money (and the money of my followers) to the army? what would happen?
1-they would throw my revolutionnary a** in jail.
2-they would put me in a Sanitarium like if i was crazy.

but i wouldnt get satisfaction...

and i'm for full religious freedom. i'm a total fanatic about that. do and think whatever you want... as long as you dont hurt the others.
then comes the vital space problem... but it can be solved easily with some good intents.

but it would be hard to explain in less than 5 pages

but i have a rather clear idea. it will be old style and simple.

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LeMask
i dont know, Iranians are Chiites, i dont understand these guys very good but still... i dont know.
are we forced to do like them? we cant do better? you are sure?
it will be like the Talibans or like the Iranians at worst? huh?
you sure? you accept defeat since the beginning.

and what if we do better than that?
what if we do a classless society? and what if we make a caring government trying to solve the problems of the society? how can you be so negative?

Accepting defeat would mean that I'm fighting, I'm not. I have no desire to see a theocracy or an islamic republic in our country.
There's a movement back home trying to plant that idea in the system : Al Adl wal i7ssane. They've infiltrated universities, prey on the weak, the illiterate and openly advocated an islamic republic on a belgian newspaper.

What I see is a lunatic old man and his ambitious and dangerous daughter. The father is certifiable, throwing his predictions to whoever is stupid enough to listen to him.
The daughter tours the world whining about how she's being persecuted by the makhzen.

They, too, are selling that pipedream of a classless society based on islamic rules. It's ridiculous and dangerous for our stability, it's not going to happen anyway, as long as moroccans are moroccans, that'll never fly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2006 04:18 by chelhman.

LEMAsk,

just to center the debate, I have one simple question for you that has to do with Morocco:

Are you for liberties and freedom of choice for all Moroccans or for just your fellow brothers who hapen to share the same believes than you. In other words, I want you to tell me how in the system you are trying to sell that tries to inhibit and take away nationalities from its citizens you will:

-deal with women not wearing hijab?
-deal with people that believe in traditional Moroccan values?
-deal with people that believe in western values?

zaki7, i need no control on anybody. i dont have the right to ORDER people to do this or not.

but i'm opposed to contradictions, like :
-drinking muslims, muslim have to obbey the Charia, and if the Charia condemns the consommation of alcohol, then they have to accept the punishment, and if not, they arent muslims. got it?
and bla bla... it's a huge part of the plan. but we need a trusted system. and religious laws are good for religious people.

but once again, i'm trying to work out communities, small communities having their own values/life style. like in the old ages.
because right now, we are forcing people to live together and to adopt comon laws. and this is would only lead to trouble and conflicts.
so we need to divide... different minds, different life styles/laws...

i dont see the Hijab as something important... Hijab or not, it's up to the individual to decide. but i want to punish things like forcing people to wear/not wear the Hijab and such...

i'm for individual freedom. but the decisions will be taken at the family/tribe level.
and if someone isnt happy, he can go away and make his own group or join another group meeting his objectives...

i dont have yet a clear idea about this.

but let's take the worse case... that we have to force the use of Hijab... should we force it on non-muslims aswell? you see? it's not possible.
but in another hand, we arent even sure that the Hijab is Muslim outfit for women...

so we are FORCED to give the individual the freedom to choose it's clothes.

salam alaykum
chelhman

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Look at the writings of others on this forum, you're in the minority.

let me tell u r wrong .don t take this forum as a reference when talking about majority/minority though i don t see the point from your statement.

i don t think LeMask a kind of person who NEEDS help from anyone who shares same views and argument .he is not kind of person asks e-friends to get in the forum to show that they are many moroccans who calls of cutting morocco from the rest of the arab world and if it happened and we have to give support to any arab country (ex: Palestine) it will be from the fact of supporting human rights(no wrong with that) but not from the fact that we are muslim or Quds ...blablabla the proof he never refer to anyone who shares his opinions.

better keeps posting your viewpoints don t talk about the majority/minority you far from the reality

your prejudice makes you just blind you can not imagine how conservative muslim can build a developed country ,how a country that constitution are extract from Shariaa can go far in social, economical political.... etc .

Mmm, talking about contradiction

You say you have no right to ORDER people to do this or not but you are for punishing people who drink. How can you say 2 different things in the same message?

We are finally getting to the point, you want to "impose" charia on Moroccans, whether they think like you or not. If you come with a set of punishments and you enact them into laws in a society, we are talking theocracy not democracy.

I strongly disagree on the fact that we need to divide, we need to diversify yes, not divide. I go back to the main argument I was making in the beginning which is that we have to understabd that it is ok to be different and that if X does not adopt my way of life, it is also ok and I should not judge him if I don't want him to judge me. That is true liberty and democracy. Dividing people from their way of lifes is contradictory with the definition of a nation. There has to be a unity that transcends all the values, including the material ones, and yes the religious ones.

We agree for not imposing or not imposing the Hijab (like Tunisia), but I would like the same approach for all other walks of life and all other matters.

My next question is:

Since you seem to be for individual freedom and freedom of choice, would you be ok to have that written in the constitution as a supreme law of the country? thus ensuring that no group will ever emerge with a set of values and tries to impose them on all Moroccans, whether it is an islamist group or a berber group or an arab group or a rifi group, etc...

Quote
LeMask
zaki7, i need no control on anybody. i dont have the right to ORDER people to do this or not.

but i'm opposed to contradictions, like :
-drinking muslims, muslim have to obbey the Charia, and if the Charia condemns the consommation of alcohol, then they have to accept the punishment, and if not, they arent muslims. got it?
and bla bla... it's a huge part of the plan. but we need a trusted system. and religious laws are good for religious people.

but once again, i'm trying to work out communities, small communities having their own values/life style. like in the old ages.
because right now, we are forcing people to live together and to adopt comon laws. and this is would only lead to trouble and conflicts.
so we need to divide... different minds, different life styles/laws...

i dont see the Hijab as something important... Hijab or not, it's up to the individual to decide. but i want to punish things like forcing people to wear/not wear the Hijab and such...

i'm for individual freedom. but the decisions will be taken at the family/tribe level.
and if someone isnt happy, he can go away and make his own group or join another group meeting his objectives...

i dont have yet a clear idea about this.

but let's take the worse case... that we have to force the use of Hijab... should we force it on non-muslims aswell? you see? it's not possible.
but in another hand, we arent even sure that the Hijab is Muslim outfit for women...

so we are FORCED to give the individual the freedom to choose it's clothes.

good point zaki7.
it's very simple.

we say that the people are free? but they also have to take responsabilities... it's like keeping a word.

i'm free, but when i give my word, i give up a part of my freedom.

and when you name yourself a "muslim"... it's like giving your word to your fellow muslims... you put yourself in a group. you benefit from the group... but at the same time, you have a duty toward this group. you have to follow their laws. these laws have a name.

and one of these laws, is to punish the consumption of alcohol.

of course, it's not a hunt or a game... like did the Talibans, we arent going to search the houses and put a police to check if the people are drunk or not...
but if you hurt someone because you are drunk (walking drunk in front of the kids of your brother as an example)... you will have to be punished.

we love freedom, but there is limits and barriers we have to respect.

just give the people what they want...

in fact, i'm for freedom, it's like if i told you "choose the kind of laws you want"... and then you say "i'm muslim, so i want the Sharia" and then the answer will be "if i you get caught drunk, you will be in trouble." ... it's strict? yeah... but it's fair.

and then, every community would have it's own rules... old style...

you know, i know a dude in Israel... he is the kind of extreem Zionist dude... a real little monster if you want my opinion... but we can agree on many points... we could be friends if it was in different circumstances...
and many times he said "i wish we could push the Israeli arab out of the country, even if we had to pay them."... so my answer was "what the hell? but why?" ... and then he answered that the reproduction rate was faster in the arab side... so, someday they could be the majority within Israel...

and guess what? he is absolutely right... in a democracy, you can take power from the inside with the number...
you see the conflicts it can make?

so if the democratic system have such flaws in the essence (the majority rules)... how dare we to see it as the perfect system?

since the WW2... we were promised peace and freedom by the politics... but they never did.
we dont need a ruling class...
if the democracy is right when they say that the citizen is supposed to be enlightened, good and intelligent... then there would be no need for politics because the right path would be clear for everyone.

not the case...
have a good day... got tons of paper work to do for tommorow... ah hell...

Well I am sorry to say then, you are not for Freedom if you are limiting individual liberties based on your view of the religion see you cannot have it both ways, it's either yes I am for freedoms for everybody on an equal and individual level or no, I am for a pseudo-freedom as I see them fit for society as per my personal view of Islam which is called theocracy.

And no, sorry to not agree with your view but When I name myself a muslim, I do not give my word to any other human being, I give my word to God. You said it yourself, there is no clergy in Islam. Being muslim is volontary and not contractual towards other muslim but to your God not even to the Prophet PBUH like the christins did with Jesus but only to God.

Israel is not a democracy, it is a theocracy, the country has been created based on the thorah so it is the counter example of what I am talking about.

I would give the same advice to your ISraeli friend, if he is concerned about a certain group (arabs in this case) taking over and decreasing his liberties, all he has to do is make it clear in the constitution that no group even if he has the majority can alter or modify the freedom of other based on the fact that it is the majority. If he puts these safeguards in the constitution as a supreme lw that is independant from time, political or religious circumstances, he wouldn't have to worry about that. Right now Israel is the definition of a theocracy along with Iran, the 2 countries in the world where religion legislates.

We are really not talking here about some sort of grounbreaking theme, this has been discussed among many philosophers including in Islam more than we think. I mean this is exactly the agenda that evangelists and Mr Bush has been pushing for in the last years, and we all know the catastrophy it let do.

M. Bush thinks just like you. He believes that he is a good christian and that he has a "mission" in this world to uphold the values of christianity in his country and in the world. We can see now where he lead his country. Today I think the americans are realizing how wrong they were to move away from the principle of separation of religion and state and we will with no doubt see a big shift towars rehabilitating this principle in this month's elections. A theocracy in muslim countries will be no different, take Iran, you have a lunatic guy who thinks he is on a divine mission and he has a plan to achieve this mission which is even more scarier.

Just so that you realize that what you are talking about is not new but has been around in other countries and other faith including the recent decades. Here is a good documnetary on how dangerous is a group of people who think they hold the exclusive thruth (such as your sentence: "as a good muslim you should know and do..):

[www.theocracywatch.org]

Quote
LeMask
good point zaki7.
it's very simple.

we say that the people are free? but they also have to take responsabilities... it's like keeping a word.

i'm free, but when i give my word, i give up a part of my freedom.

and when you name yourself a "muslim"... it's like giving your word to your fellow muslims... you put yourself in a group. you benefit from the group... but at the same time, you have a duty toward this group. you have to follow their laws. these laws have a name.

and one of these laws, is to punish the consumption of alcohol.

of course, it's not a hunt or a game... like did the Talibans, we arent going to search the houses and put a police to check if the people are drunk or not...
but if you hurt someone because you are drunk (walking drunk in front of the kids of your brother as an example)... you will have to be punished.

we love freedom, but there is limits and barriers we have to respect.

just give the people what they want...

in fact, i'm for freedom, it's like if i told you "choose the kind of laws you want"... and then you say "i'm muslim, so i want the Sharia" and then the answer will be "if i you get caught drunk, you will be in trouble." ... it's strict? yeah... but it's fair.

and then, every community would have it's own rules... old style...

you know, i know a dude in Israel... he is the kind of extreem Zionist dude... a real little monster if you want my opinion... but we can agree on many points... we could be friends if it was in different circumstances...
and many times he said "i wish we could push the Israeli arab out of the country, even if we had to pay them."... so my answer was "what the hell? but why?" ... and then he answered that the reproduction rate was faster in the arab side... so, someday they could be the majority within Israel...

and guess what? he is absolutely right... in a democracy, you can take power from the inside with the number...
you see the conflicts it can make?

so if the democratic system have such flaws in the essence (the majority rules)... how dare we to see it as the perfect system?

since the WW2... we were promised peace and freedom by the politics... but they never did.
we dont need a ruling class...
if the democracy is right when they say that the citizen is supposed to be enlightened, good and intelligent... then there would be no need for politics because the right path would be clear for everyone.

not the case...
have a good day... got tons of paper work to do for tommorow... ah hell...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2006 12:26 by zaki7.

Hi sarah70

let me tell u r wrong .don t take this forum as a reference when talking about majority/minority though i don t see the point from your statement.


It's the only forum I'm registered with. I'm confortable here because it allows critical thinking. I've browse through other forums, you're right but they have less diversity.


i don t think LeMask a kind of person who NEEDS help from anyone who shares same views and argument .
he is not kind of person asks e-friends to get in the forum to show that they are many moroccans who calls of cutting morocco from the rest of the arab world and if it happened and we have to give support to any arab country (ex: Palestine) it will be from the fact of supporting human rights(no wrong with that) but not from the fact that we are muslim or Quds ...blablabla the proof he never refer to anyone who shares his opinions.
better keeps posting your viewpoints don t talk about the majority/minority you far from the reality


I disagree, the majority of Moroccans are distrustful of a theocracy. I did not say that we should be cut off from the arab world, I'm saying the illusion being forced on us is that we are in Arabia. Morocco is an african country influenced through its history by Arabs, nothing more. We have different roots, different customs...etc.

These are facts.
Having relations with the arab world doesn't mean we should assimilate everything about them.
We've always been a hybrid culture, why should we suddenly disregard one and pretend we're something we've never been ?
That's the idea being pushed. To me it's revisionism, our history can not be summed up only by its arabic influence, we have been at the crossroads of two worlds, that's what made us what we are.
It would be like cutting off a limb.

As for the majority/minority, it's pretty clear that a theocratic system isn't favoured by our fellow citizens, so yes, advocating a theocracy is to be in the minority. It's obvious.


your prejudice makes you just blind you can not imagine how conservative muslim can build a developed country ,how a country that constitution are extract from Shariaa can go far in social, economical political.... etc .


It's not prejudice, it's just realism from reasoning and a sense of history, religion has nothing to do with governing, it simply doesn't work in a porous 21st century society. Unless you're cut off from the rest of the world.
The laws can not be modified because they're from the Holy Book. But I'm open to any example you could show me where a theocratic system in all religions has ever produced a free society.
It's no accident that other religions have drop it, they broke their backs on it and decided religion should be separated from the state. It seems to be working for them. They have laws they can adjust in accordance with the evolution of their societies. Just like we're trying to do in ours, evidently it's not always understood.

Judging by this debate, the tiniest reform and some people start screaming blasphemy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2006 06:37 by chelhman.

Chalhman, also, to restate my question:

Since you seem to be for individual freedom and freedom of choice, would you be ok to have that written in the constitution as a supreme law of the country? thus ensuring that no group will ever emerge with a set of values and tries to impose them on all Moroccans, whether it is an islamist group or a berber group or an arab group or a rifi group, etc...

Hi Zaki7,

Absolutely, that would be the first thing to do. Our ethnic background has no bearing on our status as citizens and no particular group should have the upper hand.
I want competent people running the country, where those people are from, is irrelevant.
But we may be faced with this question sooner than you think with the Sahrawi autonomy, I'm guessing the word "autonomy" is going to sound good in other people's ears once the Sahrawi have it. I'm actually worried about that.

But to get back to the subject, given the level of civic education in our country, I favor a status quo while we raise the level of litteracy. Once we have citizens educated enough to decide which way they want to go, then and only then, should we reform.
Uninformed and uneducated people make lousy citizens.

Now to LeMask and Sarah, same question since I didn't get an answer from you

Since you seem to be for individual freedom and freedom of choice, would you be ok to have that written in the constitution as a supreme law of the country? thus ensuring that no group will ever emerge with a set of values and tries to impose them on all Moroccans, whether it is an islamist group or a berber group or an arab group or a rifi group, etc...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2006 06:22 by zaki7.

Quote

But to get back to the subject, given the level of civic education in our country, I favor a status quo while we raise the level of litteracy. Once we have citizens educated enough to decide which way they want to go, then and only then, should we reform.
Uninformed and uneducated people make lousy citizens.

then this is tyranny...
you judge the people as "too stupid" to decide. it's sad. you are for a rulling elite?

i'm sorry, but i'm totally against this idea. i say give them the freedom to make mistakes, and force them to repair them (even through violence).

and who should decide when they will be able to decide?
it's crazy... you cant judge. a human being cant judge that.

because i can go to educated countries like Europe and say "ah, you are all dumb. morons like shouldnt be free. you will do as i say." ...
this is so sad. sorry man, i'm for total freedom. and this freedom will be naturally limited by the freedom of the others.

and once the people will be doing what they want, i will be able to give them the full responsability of their actions.

it's like the difference of a proffessional soldier and free man who wants to fight. i cant judge a man for following orders, but i can judge a free man...

but anyway... zaki7, sorry man, i'm late to answer you, but i needed sometime to give you a real answer, and i had tons of exams these 3 last days. anyway...

i'm for individual freedom, and if you read carefully you would see that i wouldnt control anyone. i will just choose a group believing in the same things as me.

i wont force a Chiite to live the same way as me or such. there is millions of muslims on earth, it wont be easy to put them in one group.
there could be many groups... brother groups.

and i said that i wanted a "government" (representants) at the family/tribe/city level... to give the max freedom possible.

but as muslims, we are supposed to work the same way... so there would be automatically a lot of communication between these groups. a lot of influence...
they will find themselves living the same way sooner or later dont worry.

and to answer you question, YES, i wish i could have such condition in the constitution...
a thing that say "there is no authority. the authority you have is the authority the others give you. and they can take it back at the second they want." (bai3a)

Quote

LeMask
then this is tyranny...
you judge the people as "too stupid" to decide. it's sad. you are for a rulling elite?
i'm sorry, but i'm totally against this idea. i say give them the freedom to make mistakes, and force them to repair them (even through violence).
and who should decide when they will be able to decide?
it's crazy... you cant judge. a human being cant judge that.

because i can go to educated countries like Europe and say "ah, you are all dumb. morons like shouldnt be free. you will do as i say." ...
this is so sad. sorry man, i'm for total freedom. and this freedom will be naturally limited by the freedom of the others.

and once the people will be doing what they want, i will be able to give them the full responsability of their actions.

it's like the difference of a proffessional soldier and free man who wants to fight. i cant judge a man for following orders, but i can judge a free man...

You're caricaturing LeMask. I didn't say stupid, I said educated, informed.

Who generally falls for extreme populist speeches ?
It's obvious that an illiterate citizen is prey for extremes.
Total freedom + poverty + illiteracy, you know exactly where this is going to lead in our country.
We're not talking about budgetary mistakes here, we're talking about ushering in people who are going to take away the very freedom that brought them in. Let's be realistic.
Our kind of mistakes are fatal because we haven't emancipated politics from religion, comparing us to Europe is nonsense.

So, yes, I'd rather have a enlightened king centralizing power and loosening the bolts one at a time than unscrewing everything at once and have my freedoms taken away.
Might seem cynical to you but there's no margin for error, we have to be cold and calculating.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2006 04:08 by chelhman.

chelhman i dont try to make you look bad, but what is the definition of educated and informed?
capable of writing his name? aware of the Chaos theory?

we have to put them next to who and what? to the Canadians? the Canadians are known for their high level of education...

so the Morrocans would be free... in... oh, never... the Canadians wont wait for us to reach their level...

it's crazy. the people arent informed, but they are able to know what is good for them.

i dont want a perfect system, i want a system i trust, and i think that a Muslim system would be trusted and accepted.
and we can make it perfect if we try hard enough.

so i dont know, i'm not satisfied in the actual system, and following what i know, it's the same in many arab countries (Tunisia and Algeria) these countries are getting rapped by a godless government.

give their people an army capable of taking power and you will see how they trust and love their governments.

freedom is vital, we wont see any evolution without the freedom to choose who will represent you.
and i say represent you and not rule you.

we are sick of surviving, we want to live.

Hi LeMask,

Educated and informed means a citizen capable to discern when his freedoms are in danger.

You and I, know countless people in Morocco who are devout people but illiterate who would fall prey to any speech cloaked in religion, for many people I know, if it's religious, it must be virtuous,
you and I also know that it is seldom the case when religion is used as a flag for political purposes.

We are going to differ on this, but there is no scenario in history when religion and politics successfully mixed. There is no precedent, it never worked.
The present system is not perfect, I grant you that, but it's moving in the right direction. Look back on our country just 15 years ago and compare : we have made progress by leaps and bounds, there's no doubt about that.
But remember the old saying : "better the devil I know, than the devil I don't".
And by the way, you don't look to me as you're "surviving", you're in Europe, if the islamists take over our country, you're not going to be under their thumb.
Why are you so adament about bringing them in ?

chelhman you are so wrong on that one.

who should decide? people like me? or people like you?
because honestly, i would put you in the same group as these poor people who are uneducated. of course, you can write your name on a paper and use a computer, but it doesnt make you a person "aware of it's freedom" ... because i'm talking freedom with you and you see me as an oppressive person. do you see?

it wont work, the people arent happy. what do you need more as sign that things have to change?

journalists get in prison for critisizing the government, and the people fear the government... it should be the opposite. and you accept that.

the country is crawling in corruption, and we have people fighting our own religion in our country. and you think that it's fine?

i'm sorry, but we all irresponsible people unable to be free then...

or you are mistaken, and everybody is already free, because god gave no one the right to decide for the others...
i want the government as a form of caring citizen giving the others advices. and the others will follow these advices because they love and trust these people.

like at the time of the Prophet, did the prophet had a personnal army to beat the hell out of the people if they refuse to follow him?
he could. but they were following him for love and trust.

and from where this love and trust came from? knowledge... they were following him not because he got a nice voice... but because he knew more about them (religion is knowledge)... they were savages at that time.

we are savages at that time. we need to break the chains. and then, we should organise and build on solid foundation... build on knowledge and reputation.

and then you will see where will be the trust of the citizens.

because right now, they trust nothing and no one. so we impose things on them saying it's good for them. like if they were milky cows... eat this it's good for you, and i will come to take 40% of your milk tommorow.

NO! ... they arent my animals. they are my brothers.
if i speak to them correctly to equal from equal, they will follow me.

if they dont, it's their right. it's not a problem, i will give them the example and they will maybe join me in the future. and i'm sure that they will ask for my help someday.

Quote

LeMask
who should decide? people like me? or people like you?

The voters. But like I said, a voter who signs with a cross isn't the best thing for a country. So in the meantime, like I said earlier, "Better the devil I know, than the devil I don't".
Let's put our efforts in education to create a healthy political climate.

Quote

because honestly, i would put you in the same group as these poor people who are uneducated. of course, you can write your name on a paper and use a computer, but it doesnt make you a person "aware of it's freedom"

I'm always amazed by the arrogance of certainties religious people can exhibit.

Quote

journalists get in prison for critisizing the government, and the people fear the government... it should be the opposite. and you accept that.

What are talking about ? That hasn't happened in years !

Do you read our papers on a daily basis ? They're free to say what they want as long as it isn't defamatory, like in any civilized country.

Quote

the country is crawling in corruption, and we have people fighting our own religion in our country. and you think that it's fine?
i'm sorry, but we all irresponsible people unable to be free then...

Where there's corruption, there are corruptors, how many times didn't we slip a bill to a public servant to get ahead. We are as much responsible as the one receiving the bill.
As for the general climate, the zero corruption level doesn't exist. I live in Belgium, check the newspapers, there's not a month that passes by without a scandal with the socialists these days, earlier the social-christians where in power, it was the same.
It's human greed, it won't go away anytime soon. It might diminish with better salaries for the public sector with Morocco but a scandinavian level is a pipedream in our countries.


As for the rest for your post, we'll agree to disagree. My vision of a healthy political system includes religion miles away from state affairs and vice versa.
And since I'm not trying to convince you, you keep dreaming of your islamic republic and I'll keep dreaming of an erudite citizenry in a progressive country.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2006 08:45 by chelhman.